Fence Sitter wrote:Do you believe he actually had the gold plates?
George Miller wrote:Mike Reed is doing some amazing work on that. All I can say is that it looks like Joseph did indeed have plates, though he may not have understood what he had. This is Mike's work and I am afraid that this is all I am at liberty of saying.
Fence Sitter wrote:Thanks George.
Still so much more research to be done. George and I need to nail this down solid before it goes to print.
George Miller wrote:When the Grand Lodge was formed in Utah they banned Mormons from joining or visiting Masonic lodge in Utah. After the ban was introduced by the Utah Masons, the church made it official policy in the Handbook of Instructions that joining of any oath bound organization was strongly discouraged, and it was up to the discretion of the file leader to withhold a temple recommend from anyone who maintained membership in such an organization.
Since Masons excluded Mormons first, it is easy to imagine the Mormon policy as a girlfriend/boyfriend breaking up: You can't break up with me... I am breaking up with YOU!
George, given the fact that I have not yet had time to listen through the podcasts, may I conclude that Masons unhappy with the Masonic reformation from 1825 to 1850 deserted Masonry for Mormonism? The more pragmatic, rational, and ethical Masons rejected them, and they (the speculative Masons) carried on those traditions within Mormonism?
Huckelberry said: I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.
Many of the converts were from abroad and usually came from the lower class. Were these foreign converts as familiar with Masonry as those from the U.S.?
MCB,
I seem to recall in the podcast George saying the anti-masonic fervor dying down in 1830's. Based on the numbers of Masons in Nauvoo it does not appear they were deserting Masonry at all for Mormonism, rather they were practicing both. George does speculate that because the Nauvoo charter had been revoked Joseph Smith got no response from the Masons in the mob that killed him when he gave the Masonic cry of distress, if in fact it even happened.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
MCB wrote:George, given the fact that I have not yet had time to listen through the podcasts, may I conclude that Masons unhappy with the Masonic reformation from 1825 to 1850 deserted Masonry for Mormonism? The more pragmatic, rational, and ethical Masons rejected them, and they (the speculative Masons) carried on those traditions within Mormonism?
No I don't think this is an accurate conception of what happened. First of all I don't really think there was a Masonic Reformation between 1825-1850.
George Miller wrote:No I don't think this is an accurate conception of what happened. First of all I don't really think there was a Masonic Reformation between 1825-1850.
Fence Sitter wrote:Many of the converts were from abroad and usually came from the lower class. Were these foreign converts as familiar with Masonry as those from the U.S.?
The English and European converts were definitely not as familiar with Masonry as the first wave of Mormon converts (ie prior to Kirtland). While both American and European Masonry went through a Christianization movement in the early 1800s, European Masonry never reached the prominence of its American cousin in the pre-Morgan Affair world.
Fence Sitter wrote:I seem to recall in the podcast George saying the anti-masonic fervor dying down in 1830's. Based on the numbers of Masons in Nauvoo it does not appear they were deserting Masonry at all for Mormonism, rather they were practicing both. George does speculate that because the Nauvoo [MASONIC] charter had been revoked Joseph Smith got no response from the Masons in the mob that killed him when he gave the Masonic cry of distress, if in fact it even happened.
Good summary Fence Sitter. The Nauvoo Mormons were practicing both Mormonism and Masonry. In fact I suspect that it was only the first wave of Mormons which were familiar from the beginning with Joseph Smith's interest in both.
George Miller wrote:No I don't think this is an accurate conception of what happened. First of all I don't really think there was a Masonic Reformation between 1825-1850.
CFR
There was definitely an Anti-Masonic movement between 1825-1850. I am not sure how I give a CFR for something not existing. Surely there were minor changes of emphasis in the post-Morgan Affair Masonry, but a reformation is simply not an accurate description of what happened. Please feel free to checkout Revolutionary Brotherhood by Steven C. Bullock for a Masonic history of the time period.
Perhaps the reference to a "Masonic Reformation" means something to others than what it does to me. Please specify what is meant by the term, and I will be happy to elaborate.
Suere. Maybe I used a term with some negative associations. What I mean is that Masonry responded to the Morgan affair by changing the way they did things. They countered the negative publicity and negative attitude towards themselves by changing. When this changed, some left Masonry for Mormonism.
Remember Thomas Sharp's railing against the abuses of Masonry that were happening just a few miles upriver. He said that Masonry was constructed to encourage ethical behavior in its members-- that was its purpose. And, yes, Stak, it does go back to June 27, 1844.
I am ready to listen to the rest of the podcast.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Huckelberry said: I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.
