A Stak Attack, 2 missionaries, and suffering in God's plan

[_Simon Belmont]

Ah, I see in this thread that, once again, Darth J. is promoting the Church of Darth J. while, at the same time, gravely misrepresenting the LDS church.

Hey Darth J.: lots of paradoxes exist, yet they somehow resolve themselves. Just like Zeno's paradox: to get from point A to B, you'd have to make it half way. To get from point A to (1/2)B, you'd have to make it half way. To get from point A to (1/4)B, you'd have to make it half way.

This can go on and on to infinity. But somehow, by some magical way, people get from point A to point B every single day.

Amazing!

[_Rambo]

Ah, I see in this thread that, once again, Darth J. is promoting the Church of Darth J. while, at the same time, gravely misrepresenting the LDS church.

Hey Darth J.: lots of paradoxes exist, yet they somehow resolve themselves. Just like Zeno's paradox: to get from point A to B, you'd have to make it half way. To get from point A to (1/2)B, you'd have to make it half way. To get from point A to (1/4)B, you'd have to make it half way.

This can go on and on to infinity. But somehow, by some magical way, people get from point A to point B every single day.

Amazing!

What is amazing is you never show how he misrepresents the LDS church. It least he has quotes and talks that back up what he says. As far as I can tell DarthJ understood things the same way I did.

[_Buffalo]

God has time to intervene directly to help people find money on the ground or lost keys. But protecting rape victims just isn't that important to him.

Perhaps someday your attempt to attribute something to God that isn't there, will be understood by you. Perhaps. And perhaps someday you'll see it all clearly, of course your mortal life will most likely have long passed on. The same for me though.

We know for sure that God helps people find money on the ground. They said so in General Conference. We know for sure also that God let's million of women (and children) be raped every year.

[_Simon Belmont]

What is amazing is you never show how he misrepresents the LDS church. It least he has quotes and talks that back up what he says. As far as I can tell DarthJ understood things the same way I did.

Take a look at the other thread.

[_stemelbow]

What is amazing is you never show how he misrepresents the LDS church. It least he has quotes and talks that back up what he says. As far as I can tell DarthJ understood things the same way I did.

That is interesting thing though. Most LDS I know never take things so literally as DJ likes to present them. the ones that do normally come off as self-righteous, judgmental jerks. DJ, afterall, is as condemning of me and others as any of the quotes from LDS he likes to post and complain about. Its weird stuff...this message board. But its eye opening in a way.

[_stemelbow]

We know for sure that God helps people find money on the ground. They said so in General Conference. We know for sure also that God let's million of women (and children) be raped every year.

What a weird way to try and paint it. Oh well...

[_Buffalo]

We know for sure that God helps people find money on the ground. They said so in General Conference. We know for sure also that God let's million of women (and children) be raped every year.

What a weird way to try and paint it. Oh well...

I'm not seeing a refutation anywhere in there.

[_huckelberry]

In a number of ways. First it is taught that Christ suffered the same pains and afflictions we did in order to be able to succor us. Does He do this through spiritual means?

How does Christ suffering a vicarious gang rape help this woman at all? What sense of peace would this women receive if the punishment for her rapists' sins was also commuted to Christ?

This is odd to my mind. Jesus suffered the authorities and power figures making fun of him and deciding it best to nail him to some planks till he died. I think different people all find their own sufferning. Some larger than others.

From the vantage point of belief in atonement Jesus suffering was for forgiveness for people not that he experienced everybodies pain. That seems to me transparently absurd.

Perhaps if a person imagines God as unaware of suffering Jesus could be imagined as help God learn something. In the understanding of the living Jesus God knows the lives of sparrows and their suffering, knows the hairs on our head. God the father knows all of the suffering of the human race in greater intimacy than any of us.

Jesus death and atonement would be God sharing something with us not God learning something from our inventive methods of hurting each other.

[_huckelberry]

Well let’s think it through…
(1) God could punish her rapists, but I don’t think that would go a long way in healing her trauma.

(2) God could heal her trauma directly, but how?

(Second Amendment) He could erase her memory of the event, but since the event was so terrible, much of her life after the attacked would be a senseless jumble without the context of being a survivor of something vicious.

(2b) God could simply grant her peace of mind, instantly making her feel at peace with the entire event, but doesn’t this seem kind of like a cheap deus ex machina? If he can do that, why not just prevent the gang rape in the first place? Why was the gang rape necessary, if he just waited till she killed herself before fixing her? Also, would this still be the same woman, because after all, her peace of mind didn’t come from herself, it was an artificial peace of mind dispensed out by a divine pharmacist.

I think (2b) is interesting, because that calls into question of why we are even here in the first place. Why study and prepare for the test if you are going to be granted an A+ anyways? It makes the entire experience here on earth just some kind of moot point.

It is curious that these possiblities are not the basic Christian ones. Granted as Stemelbow has noted none of us know all the details of Gods future plan. However Christian faith is the substance of the hope for Gods solustion. That faith is the actions we humans share helping each other, caring for each other which are the seeds of a different sort of world. In the marriage feast of eternity the seeds of a world where all things are made new have the nutrition to grow to maturity.

This is not something applied to people, it is grown with their effort with God.
This is not a forgetting this world but new growth replacing its death.
It is not a contest where everybodies suffering is a test or chracter building project. I think you are importantly correct that there is suffering which defeats people and weakens their humanity. I think the hope of all things made new can only make sense where the growth we accomplish is all shared. Those who suffer defeat in this life will receive new life in the kingdom of God in eternity. So take the invitation and start the seed growing in whatever ways present themseleves to you.

[_Nightlion]

Well let’s think it through…
(1) God could punish her rapists, but I don’t think that would go a long way in healing her trauma.

(2) God could heal her trauma directly, but how?

(Second Amendment) He could erase her memory of the event, but since the event was so terrible, much of her life after the attacked would be a senseless jumble without the context of being a survivor of something vicious.

(2b) God could simply grant her peace of mind, instantly making her feel at peace with the entire event, but doesn’t this seem kind of like a cheap deus ex machina? If he can do that, why not just prevent the gang rape in the first place? Why was the gang rape necessary, if he just waited till she killed herself before fixing her? Also, would this still be the same woman, because after all, her peace of mind didn’t come from herself, it was an artificial peace of mind dispensed out by a divine pharmacist.

I think (2b) is interesting, because that calls into question of why we are even here in the first place. Why study and prepare for the test if you are going to be granted an A+ anyways? It makes the entire experience here on earth just some kind of moot point.

It is curious that these possiblities are not the basic Christian ones. Granted as Stemelbow has noted none of us know all the details of Gods future plan. However Christian faith is the substance of the hope for Gods solustion. That faith is the actions we humans share helping each other, caring for each other which are the seeds of a different sort of world. In the marriage feast of eternity the seeds of a world where all things are made new have the nutrition to grow to maturity.

This is not something applied to people, it is grown with their effort with God.
This is not a forgetting this world but new growth replacing its death.
It is not a contest where everybodies suffering is a test or chracter building project. I think you are importantly correct that there is suffering which defeats people and weakens their humanity. I think the hope of all things made new can only make sense where the growth we accomplish is all shared. Those who suffer defeat in this life will receive new life in the kingdom of God in eternity. So take the invitation and start the seed growing in whatever ways present themseleves to you.

The Christian gospel that requires faith unto repentance and culminates in the visitation of the power of the Father and the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost does in fact remove the trauma from off a soul that has been violated even to the greatest extreme. This I know by perfect experience and not of another. Why is this not generally known and well understood by supposed "practicing Christians? Geeze, hmm?