The Dead

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_just me
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Re: The Dead

Post by _just me »

sock puppet wrote:
just me wrote:Don't underestimate the survival instinct.
sock puppet wrote:But, from where did that instinct come? and why?
just me wrote:God, obviously. Duh. He wants us away from him as long as possible.
Oh. So God equipped us with an instinct to try to stay away from Him as long as possible. I never caught the part that God wanted us out of the nest for as long as possible. Did they teach that concept in Know Your Religion classes?


HAHAHAHAHAHA! iCan't

Just listen to Sophocles, he's the awesomest.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
_sock puppet
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Re: The Dead

Post by _sock puppet »

Sophocles wrote:In any fictional story, especially those involving supernatural beings or powers, you can always find ways to short circuit the plot. Often artificial limitations are contrived to prevent this, but other times audiences are just expected to ignore the loophole as part of the willing suspension of disbelief. In other words, the ultimate reason that characters in stories don't act realistically, taking advantage of all powers and loopholes available to them, is because then there would be no story.

The reason we don't have as many kids as possible and then drown them all before the age of accountability is because that doctrine was not invented as a way to maximize the number of exalted souls. It was invented to give comfort to the surviving loved ones. That's all religion is--the stories we tell ourselves to impose illusions of justice on an existence that is far from just.

We don't drown our young children for the same reason that Marty McFly and Doctor Who never seem to make more efficient and effective use of time travel, and Jedis never seem to grasp the full potential of the Force (or even lightsabers). Because it would wreck the story.

It sure sounds like Lucifer was more loving wanting to maximize the number of exalted souls, while Elohim and Jehovah are trying to make it just an exclusive club for their select.
_jo1952
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Re: The Dead

Post by _jo1952 »

sock puppet wrote:
just me wrote:Don't underestimate the survival instinct.
sock puppet wrote:But, from where did that instinct come? and why?
just me wrote:God, obviously. Duh. He wants us away from him as long as possible.
Oh. So God equipped us with an instinct to try to stay away from Him as long as possible. I never caught the part that God wanted us out of the nest for as long as possible. Did they teach that concept in Know Your Religion classes?


When He wants us, He'll take us. We are here to learn. Life is not easy - wasn't meant to be. Lots to experience and lots of choices to help us prepare for the next phase of our eternal existence. Weren't you paying attention in your classes? Or is it that you just don't believe what you were being taught? I don't know your story yet, so I don't know where you are coming from.

Your comment about finding a young child lying face down in water is something our Ward just went through. He survived for about two months....it was terrible to watch.

Best regards,

jo
_Chap
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Re: The Dead

Post by _Chap »

jo1952 wrote:When He wants us, He'll take us.


People die because your deity makes them die?

Wouldn't that mean that if we try to stop someone dying who would depart this life without our intervention, then we are interfering with your deity's plan?

I know that is not what you intend to convey, but I don't think you can write what you did above and deny that it implies that people's deaths are due to your divinity's actions.

(If someone dies because of my action, we might say that I have 'killed' them. Presumably we have to be more polite when deities are under discussion, so I won't pursue that now.)
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_just me
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Re: The Dead

Post by _just me »

We are here to learn. Life is not easy - wasn't meant to be. Lots to experience and lots of choices to help us prepare for the next phase of our eternal existence.


Hi jo,

Here is the problem I see with this (I was actually considering a thread on the topic prior to reading your comment), not everyone can learn and not everyone can make choices.

Do you have a scripture that teaches that life was not meant to be easy or is that something of your personal belief based on something other than scripture?
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
_jo1952
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Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:04 am

Re: The Dead

Post by _jo1952 »

="Chap"]
jo1952 wrote:When He wants us, He'll take us.


People die because your deity makes them die?


Hi Chap!!!

Nope, we die because we are mortal. Sometimes we try to kill ourselves - but if He's not ready for us to leave, He intervenes. Other times He let's us kill ourselves. Sometimes we kill each other; then there are accidents which kill us. Sometimes there should have been accidents; but nothing happens....just as though He intervened because it wasn't our time yet. Or we get sick and die, or get old and die.

Wouldn't that mean that if we try to stop someone dying who would depart this life without our intervention, then we are interfering with your deity's plan?


No.

I know that is not what you intend to convey, but I don't think you can write what you did above and deny that it implies that people's deaths are due to your divinity's actions.

(If someone dies because of my action, we might say that I have 'killed' them. Presumably we have to be more polite when deities are under discussion, so I won't pursue that now.)


See above. I think You are making this much more complicated than it is. Whether you believe in God or not, the bottom line is that none of us are getting out of this alive. I just happen to believe that there is a Plan in place, and God is behind that Plan.

Best regards,

jo
_Chap
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Re: The Dead

Post by _Chap »

jo1952 wrote:When He wants us, He'll take us.


jo1952 wrote:[ I just happen to believe that there is a Plan in place, and God is behind that Plan.

Best regards,

jo


So does your deity plan when we die?

I am not interested in making things complicated.

I just want to know whether your words mean what they seem to say. It may be that you really mean something much vaguer, such as "whatever happens to us, my deity will make it all right in the end", but prefer saying things like you did above because they are a bit more dramatic and definite.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_jo1952
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Posts: 1118
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:04 am

Re: The Dead

Post by _jo1952 »

just me wrote:
We are here to learn. Life is not easy - wasn't meant to be. Lots to experience and lots of choices to help us prepare for the next phase of our eternal existence.


Hi jo,

Here is the problem I see with this (I was actually considering a thread on the topic prior to reading your comment), not everyone can learn and not everyone can make choices.

Do you have a scripture that teaches that life was not meant to be easy or is that something of your personal belief based on something other than scripture?


Hi Just Me,

You are probably already familiar with the Church's beliefs concerning those who are unable to learn. These individuals will still have received the step in their eternal progression which, even though they were limited in its use, they received a physical body. Many people are very limited (at least from our pov) in making choices; some are the same people who are unable to learn. For others, many choices can be difficult if not impossible to be made due to the actions of others. So these people who had limited opportunities to make choices still receive their physical body, and are then judged according to the intent of their heart.

I don't have any particular scripture in mind when stating that life was not meant to be easy. I say this because there is quite a bit of scripture which deals with the hardships mankind goes through, in addition to my own personal experiences and observations. With both good and evil abounding, it is impossible to not be effected by either - even when we personally never had a choice, but are rather victims or beneficiaries of the choices of others. Of course, many of us learn from our own choices. Our choices don't have to be choices of physical action. So, even if our circumstances are limited for whatever reason, we do still have mental choices which we can control (with the exceptions already mentioned above).

My mother used to teach me that if I was a good girl, then I would only have good things happen to me. As a child, I took her at her word because I didn't know anything else. Boy, was she wrong!!

Best regards,

jo
_just me
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Re: The Dead

Post by _just me »

jo1952 wrote:We are here to learn. Life is not easy - wasn't meant to be. Lots to experience and lots of choices to help us prepare for the next phase of our eternal existence.

Hi jo,

Here is the problem I see with this (I was actually considering a thread on the topic prior to reading your comment), not everyone can learn and not everyone can make choices.

Do you have a scripture that teaches that life was not meant to be easy or is that something of your personal belief based on something other than scripture?


Hi Just Me,

You are probably already familiar with the Church's beliefs concerning those who are unable to learn. These individuals will still have received the step in their eternal progression which, even though they were limited in its use, they received a physical body. Many people are very limited (at least from our pov) in making choices; some are the same people who are unable to learn. For others, many choices can be difficult if not impossible to be made due to the actions of others. So these people who had limited opportunities to make choices still receive their physical body, and are then judged according to the intent of their heart.

I don't have any particular scripture in mind when stating that life was not meant to be easy. I say this because there is quite a bit of scripture which deals with the hardships mankind goes through, in addition to my own personal experiences and observations. With both good and evil abounding, it is impossible to not be effected by either - even when we personally never had a choice, but are rather victims or beneficiaries of the choices of others. Of course, many of us learn from our own choices. Our choices don't have to be choices of physical action. So, even if our circumstances are limited for whatever reason, we do still have mental choices which we can control (with the exceptions already mentioned above).

My mother used to teach me that if I was a good girl, then I would only have good things happen to me. As a child, I took her at her word because I didn't know anything else. Boy, was she wrong!!

Best regards,

jo


So it seems to me that we aren't all here to learn and that not everyone has the opportunity to make choices that will prepare them for the next life. The purpose of life is only extended to some, not the whole of humanity.

I guess it only makes sense to me...in my personal journey I decided that a just and merciful god would not set up an unfair "test." Therefore, in my mind, the purpose of life or the way to salvation must be accessible to every man, woman and child who has every graced this earth.

Since I can't think of any test that everyone can pass I decided life can't be a test afterall. The church certainly does teach that life is a test. I can't agree with that.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
_jo1952
_Emeritus
Posts: 1118
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:04 am

Re: The Dead

Post by _jo1952 »

Chap wrote:
jo1952 wrote:When He wants us, He'll take us.


jo1952 wrote:[ I just happen to believe that there is a Plan in place, and God is behind that Plan.

Best regards,

jo


So does your deity plan when we die?

I am not interested in making things complicated.

I just want to know whether your words mean what they seem to say. It may be that you really mean something much vaguer, such as "whatever happens to us, my deity will make it all right in the end", but prefer saying things like you did above because they are a bit more dramatic and definite.


I believe God knows when we are going to die.

I also believe that no matter what choices people make or don't make, that the results of those decisions or non-decisions are used to accomplish God's purposes. Thus, no action or non-action is wasted; God's purpose and desire is that we all be able to return to Him. Without taking away anyone's free will, He deals with the results of our choices and uses them for His purposes.

However, He will not force you to accept His Son AS your Savior, nor will He force you to love Him or His Son; this is all up to you to decide.

Does this help?

Best regards,

jo
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