Simon Belmont: This is what "quote mining" means

[_Simon Belmont]

You have done nothing to show that the Church does not in fact teach that Christ experienced every possible pain and sorrow that a man, woman, or child is capable of experiencing.

LOL! Now you're using "mopologist" logic? It's okay when you say "you can't prove it didn't happen!" But not when a believing member says it?

No, Master of Philosophy. I made a prima facie case. That shifts the burden to you to disprove my prima facie case.

It would help your case if you'd give a straight answer to the question. Instead, you dodge.

Let's try again:

Do you, Darth J. Believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches and believes that Jesus felt both the physical and mental pains of being raped from all rape cases from the beginning of time until the end?

A simple yes or no would suffice.

No, I am arguing with your misrepresentations of what the church actually teaches. Vicariously is fine, but when you backtrack with "well, he imagined it," that's faulty reasoning.

That isn't a backtrack. Saying "vicariously," then quoting the dictionary definition of "vicarious," then citing LDS leaders using the word "vicariously" to describe Christ's suffering is maintaining a consistent position.

You used the third definition in the dictionary to support your position. Of course you chose the one that you think would best help you.

You have also not maintained a consistent position. First, you claim that Jesus physically and mentally felt the pain and sorrow of being raped, then you claim he only imagined it. That isn't consistent.

If you don't like the dictionary definition of the word used by the Bretheren, then take it up with them.

I don't like you quote mining from the dictionary only those definitions which will support your convoluted position.

And for real, Simon, thank you for the continuing unintentional comedy you provide. I'm sorry that it's at the expense of your mental and emotional health, but maybe if you ever become a Christian, you will find the faith to accept his vicarious suffering for you.

I do not believe that if I get whacked with a baseball bat, that Jesus did too.

Do you?

[_sock puppet]

Jeffrey R. Holland

Through this suffering, Jesus redeemed the souls of all men, women, and children “that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities.” In doing so, Christ “descended below all things”—including every kind of sickness, infirmity, and dark despair experienced by every mortal being—in order that He might “comprehend all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth.”

Simon, what do you believe Jeffrey is teaching us here, if it isn't that Christ physically suffered and felt everything that the human race has/will physically suffer and feel?

(I have underlined some of the words that I think are key)

Simon doesn't believe a word that Holland taught.

Simon will only believe Holland so far as Midgley, DCP and Hamblin allow Simon to do so.

[_Darth J]

It would help your case if you'd give a straight answer to the question. Instead, you dodge.

Let's try again:

Do you, Darth J. Believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches and believes that Jesus felt both the physical and mental pains of being raped from all rape cases from the beginning of time until the end?

A simple yes or no would suffice.

Yes.

I already did say yes to what was in substance the same question, but somehow this was not a "straight answer."

You aren't arguing against me. What you are arguing is that when you see this:

James E. Faust, November 2001 Ensign

Since the Savior has suffered anything and everything that we could ever feel or experience, He can help the weak to become stronger. He has personally experienced all of it.

It does not mean that the Savior suffered anything and everything we could ever feel or experience, and it does not mean that he personally experienced all of it.

Pretty much standard operating procedure for a disciple of Mopologetics: we can't accept the plain, obvious meaning of the words said by church leaders.

You used the third definition in the dictionary to support your position. Of course you chose the one that you think would best help you.

The other definitions are not relevant.

vi·car·i·ous

adjective

1.
performed, exercised, received, or suffered in place of another: vicarious punishment.
2.
taking the place of another person or thing; acting or serving as a substitute.
3.
felt or enjoyed through imagined participation in the experience of others: a vicarious thrill.
4.
Physiology . noting or pertaining to a situation in which one organ performs part of the functions normally performed by another.

Number 1 or number 2 would mean that Jesus was literally, in fact, raped in place of a woman/all women. Since the Church does not teach that, I did not choose definition 1 or 2.

Definition 4 is not applicable.

Be sure to tell Richard G. Scott, if you ever meet him, that he is misrepresenting LDS doctrine when he says that Christ suffered vicariously for us.

You have also not maintained a consistent position. First, you claim that Jesus physically and mentally felt the pain and sorrow of being raped, then you claim he only imagined it. That isn't consistent.

What does the word "imagine" mean?

to form a mental image of (something not actually present to the senses).

Every single woman in the human race who has ever been raped would not have been physically present in Gethsemane.

It is the Church that teaches that Jesus felt all our pains and sorrows. You are still hung up on this not making sense because you cannot understand the mechanics of how it happened. It is not my fault that you do not have enough faith to accept the miraculous power of the Atonement.

Oh, and Simon, the Church teaches that Christ's pain in Gethsemane caused him to bleed from every pore. Now that I have said that, maybe this would be a good time for you to argue that I am misrepresenting the Church's teachings because you don't bleed when you do something bad, or that the human body doesn't hold enough blood to bleed that much.

If you don't like the dictionary definition of the word used by the Bretheren, then take it up with them.

I don't like you quote mining from the dictionary only those definitions which will support your convoluted position.

It is not my fault that you feel that the organization you claim as "my church" has a convoluted position.

And for real, Simon, thank you for the continuing unintentional comedy you provide. I'm sorry that it's at the expense of your mental and emotional health, but maybe if you ever become a Christian, you will find the faith to accept his vicarious suffering for you.

I do not believe that if I get whacked with a baseball bat, that Jesus did too.

And until you come to have faith in the power of the Atonement, you will not know what it is for the Savior to succor and redeem you.

Do you?

What I personally believe is not relevant to the question of what the LDS Church teaches.

But James E. Faust believed it.

[_Blixa]

Darth, this doesn't need any food:

[_Simon Belmont]

Let's try again:

Do you, Darth J. Believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches and believes that Jesus felt both the physical and mental pains of being raped from all rape cases from the beginning of time until the end?

A simple yes or no would suffice.

Yes.

Okay, why did you deny that this was your answer, saying that I quote mined you? What a tangled web you're weaving.

I have news for you: we don't teach or believe that Jesus felt the physical pain of trillions of male penetrations. None of the quotes you provided say that.

You aren't arguing against me. What you are arguing is that when you see this:

I'm arguing against your false interpretation of the quotes you are providing.

James E. Faust, November 2001 Ensign

Since the Savior has suffered anything and everything that we could ever feel or experience, He can help the weak to become stronger. He has personally experienced all of it.

Sorry. This doesn't say Jesus felt the physical pain of trillions of male penetrations. None of the quotes you provided say that. This is why I take issue with your constant misrepresentation of my church. I don't know why you hate the LDS so much, but I wish you'd get over it.

And Blixa:

I'm pretty sure no one forced you to post in this thread. If you don't like it, kindly butt out.

[_Chap]

Since the Savior has suffered anything and everything that we could ever feel or experience, He can help the weak to become stronger. He has personally experienced all of it.

Sorry. This doesn't say Jesus felt the physical pain of trillions of male penetrations. None of the quotes you provided say that. This is why I take issue with your constant misrepresentation of my church. I don't know why you hate the LDS so much, but I wish you'd get over it.

Belmont does not apparently dispute that Jesus 'suffered' and 'experienced' the pain referred to, that is, he felt it.

However, he introduces a new qualification to the discussion - to feel 'physical' pain. But he does not say what the difference is between feeling pain and feeling 'physical' pain. Unless he does that, his tactic is mere meaningless handwaving.

[_Buffalo]

Since the Savior has suffered anything and everything that we could ever feel or experience, He can help the weak to become stronger. He has personally experienced all of it.

Sorry. This doesn't say Jesus felt the physical pain of trillions of male penetrations.

That's exactly what it means, since "trillions of male penetrations" are a subset of "anything and everything." QED.

[_asbestosman]

That's exactly what it means,

Nuh-uh.

[_sock puppet]

That's exactly what it means,

Nuh-uh.

So you don't think Holland knows the proper use of the English words "anything and everything", as representing that Holland was teaching that Jesus has personally experienced "anything and everything"?

[_Molok]

I'm just happy a thread exists with the words "trillions of male penetrations" in it.