Buffalo wrote: The study of aerodynamics is not a valid field of study until scientists can explain what makes people choose to become pilots.
Also, physics remains invalid until someone can explain why astronaut food tastes so bad.
Chemistry remains unsatisfying because it doesn't explain the human need for Sandra Bullock movies.
The study of aerodynamics is a study of how things travel through the air. To fully explain an airplane all of the systems on board need to be defined. When it comes to the controls of an airplane they can be automated and the plane still functions without a pilot. So the study of man is outside of the boundaries of a plane.
If you are arguing that we can ignore some qualities of a species and fully describe a species at the same time I think you are wrong. The higher order life functions of man is still part of man. A man can walk away from a plane but our higher order life functions are part of us. If indeed evolution made life then the systems in life came from that process. Just because these are difficult questions they can't be ignored no matter how much you try and say that we can. Why is it so difficult just to write down that evolution does not explain some things? Are you afraid that once the camel's nose comes into the tent the camel is sure to follow? Are the arguments so weak in evolutionary theory that science will not admit they don't have it all figured out? If you have a hard time writing it I will do it for you. Just cut and paste it.
There are some aspects of life that science has not figured out.
Franktalk wrote: There are some aspects of life that science has not figured out.
Frank, I think that you confuse philosophy, science and religion. I would agree that any knowledge category is arbitrary and thus has some overlap, but still, you seem to put all of this in a blender. That's why it's sometimes hard to respond to you--I'm sometimes not sure where you are coming from.
Also, as I and others said in chat, I think some of your ideas are speculations outside of contemporary Mormonism. I don't know if you think it is necessary, but I would take time to sort out the differences. My advice to you is to read more about Mormonism (historically) as well as get hold of a study Bible.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
Man has divided areas of thought off of evolutionary theory because of some arbitrary reasons. To separate off sections of study as a defense mechanism is not appropriate.
What if religion did the same thing. Men could separate off the words in scripture from the meaning as a defense mechanism to protect a particular interpretation of the words. I have actually seen this done. I don't like it in religion and I don't like it in science.
The problem is not with me asking the questions it is in science who does not have the answers. I would suspect the answers are impossible to obtain in any meaningful way. I have no problem with that. There are many things we will never know. I find it very telling the responses I get when I ask certain questions. Basically I am poking a stick at science to see what happens. Some times it gets pretty ugly.
Franktalk wrote:It took a while but leading you by the nose takes time. Your beliefs are so predictable just like mine are. Although you science types will never admit it.
If we have purpose and meaning it had to come from somewhere. And if we are the product of evolution then it had to come from the evolutionary process. Now please describe to me how evolution developed a purpose to life and a meaning to life? Please take your time and give me all of the details.
Franktalk,
I am not Atheist.
Is there a purpose to life? if so, what is it? Is there meaning to life? If so, what is it?
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
Is there a purpose to life? if so, what is it? Is there meaning to life? If so, what is it?
These are great questions but they are answered on a personal level. Our free will and diversity I believe prevents a common answer. But my issue is not with the answer to these questions but with trying to figure out why we have the ability to ask them in the first place. In line with the OP I have asked how can we as defined by evolutionary theory have higher orders of thought. I personally do not think that the theory gives us a clue as to how we developed as a sentient being. It is my belief that these abilities came from a third party who designed us. I believe that it is our spirit that transcends the flesh and gives us purpose.
But placing my personal beliefs aside I wish to ask the obvious question of the theory of evolution. That is how did the process make us so we have the ability to ponder and develop a purpose? If indeed the theory can not answer that question then it just becomes an unknown. Nothing more. Those who embrace a natural origin and do not believe in a God can still embrace a theory with unknowns in it. I just wanted to make the point that the theory is not as complete as some would try and tell us.
If you wish to discuss the purpose of life I would love to do so but it should be on a different thread.
Is there a purpose to life? if so, what is it? Is there meaning to life? If so, what is it?
These are great questions but they are answered on a personal level. Our free will and diversity I believe prevents a common answer. But my issue is not with the answer to these questions but with trying to figure out why we have the ability to ask them in the first place. In line with the OP I have asked how can we as defined by evolutionary theory have higher orders of thought. I personally do not think that the theory gives us a clue as to how we developed as a sentient being. It is my belief that these abilities came from a third party who designed us. I believe that it is our spirit that transcends the flesh and gives us purpose.
But placing my personal beliefs aside I wish to ask the obvious question of the theory of evolution. That is how did the process make us so we have the ability to ponder and develop a purpose? If indeed the theory can not answer that question then it just becomes an unknown. Nothing more. Those who embrace a natural origin and do not believe in a God can still embrace a theory with unknowns in it. I just wanted to make the point that the theory is not as complete as some would try and tell us.
If you wish to discuss the purpose of life I would love to do so but it should be on a different thread.
I see. I posed two questions based on the remarks that you yourself made on this very thread and you choose not to address it on the thread of origin.
You cannot make a "point" when you are so quick to avoid it.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
Jersey Girl wrote:I see. I posed two questions based on the remarks that you yourself made on this very thread and you choose not to address it on the thread of origin.
You cannot make a "point" when you are so quick to avoid it.
How have I avoided the questions? I stated that I believe God designed us and placed us here. Are we not executing some kind of plan that God has made for us? I believe the purpose for us being here is to execute some kind of plan. But the question is how does evolution explain my belief and other peoples beliefs? I only need a belief that I have a purpose in order to ask how evolutionary theory how it is possible that I developed that ability. The actual purpose does not matter only that I think I have one.
Jersey Girl wrote:I see. I posed two questions based on the remarks that you yourself made on this very thread and you choose not to address it on the thread of origin.
You cannot make a "point" when you are so quick to avoid it.
How have I avoided the questions? I stated that I believe God designed us and placed us here. Are we not executing some kind of plan that God has made for us? I believe the purpose for us being here is to execute some kind of plan. But the question is how does evolution explain my belief and other peoples beliefs? I only need a belief that I have a purpose in order to ask how evolutionary theory how it is possible that I developed that ability. The actual purpose does not matter only that I think I have one.
You didn't answer the questions when I posed them to you. You've given a bit more now, and I thank you.
I think you are taking the long road home here in achieving your goals. It looks to me like what you are touching on is brain development.
So, in response to your comments above, I would have to say that your brain is wired for specificity in areas of cognition. Your brain is what is responsible for your belief, other people's belief and the fact that you think you have purpose.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
Jersey Girl wrote:You didn't answer the questions when I posed them to you. You've given a bit more now, and I thank you.
I think you are taking the long road home here in achieving your goals. It looks to me like what you are touching on is brain development.
So, in response to your comments above, I would have to say that your brain is wired for specificity in areas of cognition. Your brain is what is responsible for your belief, other people's belief and the fact that you think you have purpose.
Thank you for this response. To be clear are you saying that the brain in its wiring is responsible for all of my thoughts? If you feel this way I have to ask about the soul or spirit of a person. If my thoughts came from evolution and the development of the brain and no other source then we have no soul or spirit. Our thoughts are an illusion and are the work of the initial wiring and developed structure from the environment and a collection of memories. Let me know how you see this and then we can chat some more. I sure don't want to place words in your mouth like a belief in evolution would seem to dictate.
Jersey Girl wrote:You didn't answer the questions when I posed them to you. You've given a bit more now, and I thank you.
I think you are taking the long road home here in achieving your goals. It looks to me like what you are touching on is brain development.
So, in response to your comments above, I would have to say that your brain is wired for specificity in areas of cognition. Your brain is what is responsible for your belief, other people's belief and the fact that you think you have purpose.
Thank you for this response. To be clear are you saying that the brain in its wiring is responsible for all of my thoughts? If you feel this way I have to ask about the soul or spirit of a person. If my thoughts came from evolution and the development of the brain and no other source then we have no soul or spirit. Our thoughts are an illusion and are the work of the initial wiring and developed structure from the environment and a collection of memories. Let me know how you see this and then we can chat some more. I sure don't want to place words in your mouth like a belief in evolution would seem to dictate.
Frank,
Yes, I think your brain and it's wiring is responsible for not only all of your thoughts but the level at which you "think" them. Keep in mind we are just talking about cognition.
I think I am confusing you. :-)
You wrote,
If you feel this way I have to ask about the soul or spirit of a person. If my thoughts came from evolution and the development of the brain and no other source then we have no soul or spirit. Our thoughts are an illusion and are the work of the initial wiring and developed structure from the environment and a collection of memories.
I've said nothing thus far to support evolution. I merely pointed to the part of "us" that is responsible for our thoughts.
Dig this. Why is it that human beings appear to be the only beings that have the capacity for metacognition?
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb