That is an interesting theory. Actually one that I like better than the go to earth or be eternally damned doctrine taught in The Plan O Salvation.
Hi JustMe,
Are you referring to the 1/3 of the hosts of heaven who were cast out with Satan? Or have you been taught something different which I am not aware of which is in addition to Satan’s followers? Other than Satan’s minions, I am not aware of any doctrine which damns us if we do not come to the earth to participate in the Plan of Salvation. In fact, of all the churches whose doctrine I have studied, the concept of what hell is and what damnation is and what eternally damned may look like, it is the LDS Church’s teachings which mirror my understanding of what I thought the Bible had been teaching me long before I ever found the LDS Church. Indeed, Orthodox Christianity’s versions are far more dismal and permanent at best.
Inasmuch as I believe that all spirit children also serve as angels at least for a portion of their eternal existence, and some serve before and after their time on earth, I think that some of the angels who continue to serve God are those spirits who have decided (at least for now and for the time allotted for our earth) to not yet venture down to earth to receive their body. I think, though, that it is quite possible that at some point in their eternal journey, they may change their minds, as it is still their decision to make. I also have a theory that people who come to the earth who are really nasty, unhappy, and even evil people while they are here, may have been fence sitters during the councils in Heaven. They couldn’t make up their minds whether to follow Satan or to follow Christ. Since they will still be true to themselves and whatever personality their Intelligence is, that it will be manifested here in the flesh regardless of the fact that the veil is placed before the eyes of our remembrance. This means that it would be inevitable that they will choose evil over good…they still have control over their own choices. Of course, Father would know this about them, and would allow them the same chance everyone else has to participate in the Plan and still be able to place them on the earth at the times which would still help Him best fulfill His purposes.
You should understand that my theories are drawn from various sources which include, but are not limited to, The Standard Works, the Writings of Joseph Smith, non-canonized manuscripts which were available at the time the Bible was made canon but which were not included because the councils did not think the manuscripts incorporated any doctrine. Many did, however, tie out with and support doctrine. Others were more historical in nature, and so forth. I study them as well. Some of my favorites are the Books of Enoch, the Book of Jasher, the writings of Josephus, writings of other early church fathers, and such. I try not to just invent ideas out of my head only (what a scary place to do such a thing!); however, AFTER studying these various sources, I do begin to formulate questions out of curiosity born in those works and through this exercise. Then I search for support of theories which could answer those questions. At that point, if I feel it is important enough an issue, I will pray about it. This is also an extension of sincerely seeking what my current beliefs truly look like from every possible angle I can think of. These journeyings inevitably lead me to more questions as the cycle then takes on a life of its own. It is the line upon line, precept upon precept building of my understanding---and it takes me not only from milk to meat understandings, it also uncovers layers of understanding, types, patterns, etc., which are then easily recognized in the entire big picture of all of holy canon.
But it still is distrubing to teach that people chose to come and live their s****y lives.
I certainly agree. However, they also knew ahead of time what the big picture was and it was worth it to them to come here anyway. After all, to have the opportunity to become a joint heir with Christ certainly would be a very powerful incentive to come here. Once we are here, if we get to hear the Gospel Message and are able to then understand what went on before this life, why we are here now, and where we are going, this knowledge makes whatever hardships we then endure much more easy to accept. If you do not have the opportunity to hear the Message, then we certainly can feel very lost and alone. Yet this perception is incorrect. Regardless of whether we have been taught the Gospel Message, Father is STILL aware of us and our needs and wants to help us the instant we reach out for help. Knock, and it shall be opened to you. Because our journey MUST be done in faith in order for the test to be of any worth to us, we cannot walk in proof. However, Father has not left us without any direction. That is what the message is for; to bring us hope and give us access to the assistance He has provided for the inhabitants of the earth; that being the Holy Ghost to witness to us the Truth of both Father and Son, as well as to guide us to all Truth.
Again, I have a big problem with telling people that they agreed to come to earth and be tortured, raped, disemboweled, molested, starved, diseased, etc, etc. I have heard it used to basically tell people they have no room to complain because they agreed to come here to their life so just shut up and take it.
This is why spreading the Gospel Message is important! With its knowledge comes peace and understanding which spiritually speaking transcends worldly knowledge. It is also helpful to know that those who commit the atrocities will be paying for them. It angers me that there are individuals who use this knowledge to tell others they have no room to complain and to just shut up and take it. These individuals are in the unenviable and sinful position of judging others. The same judgments they mete out to others will be the same judgments used against them. I would pray for them and ask that God have mercy on them; they cannot know what is in another’s heart, or have any idea what another has experienced. This saddens me greatly and causes me concern for whatever punishments may be in store for them should they fail to sincerely repent.
Life isn't fair. Some people have the worst life experiences imaginable....actually beyond my wildest imagination. I can't even begin to comprehend a god who thinks it is a grand Plan to send me to my life, which while far from perfect is a rainbow unicorn ride compared to others, while sending some other spririt to live in squalor and starve and be riddled with disease and tortured and abused. A god with a Plan like this is an asshole, a monster, a devil.
Hey, there is no need for you to sugarcoat your opinion with me. Just let me know what you really are feeling!! :-)
I should take the time sometime soon to share with you my life story – I call myself Jobette. All I can offer is that it was extremely important for me to love Jesus even as a little girl. I cannot remember a time when I did not love Him. Nevertheless, my life has been ugly and almost unbelievable---you may even come to think that I have made some of it up. Alas, it has not been made up; but it certainly has been endured to what I often considered to be beyond my ability to do so----even though I would remember being taught that God would never give us more than we could handle, I would often question this.
If I had not loved Jesus from the very beginning, I do not think I would be where I am today. I have fought against Him, rebelled against Him, was even inactive for 18 years after joining the Church; but I never forsook Him even in the darkest times when I thought He had forsaken me. What I can tell you now is, that as a result of going through the trials I have faced and still face on a daily basis, I was brought to a very profound point in my life when, in desperation, I attempted to take my life. This was the same time in my life that I met Frank. We moved in together without benefit of marriage (even though at one point in my life had been sealed to an RM in the Salt Lake Temple which is only a very small part of my very long tale). The agony my soul was in was incomparable with anything I had yet suffered (and those sufferings are the things you would think I had made up). There seemed to be no ending to the torment of my own sin inside of my own head, the knowledge that I was still living unmarried with a man, confused because I needed someone in my life to take care of me (since 2005 I have been disabled with permanent illness and permanent physical damage to some internal organs from my illnesses which had gone undiagnosed my entire life).
You may find this very strange to hear. Regardless of the fact that I have, to a fairly high degree, been a fine and good person my entire life, many very bad things have happened to me. I thought I was being punished; but could not figure out what for. Now flash forward to just about six months ago. After months of pleading and weeping on my knees (as for years since I had gotten so sick in 2005, I felt that God no longer heard my prayers, even though before that time I could always feel His presence the moment I began any prayer), at the very lowest a person can feel and still be able to take a breath, I finally began to receive inspiration from Heavenly Father. I came to learn and realize and accept, that what I had been going through was NECESSARY. You will think that this is a crazy interpretation. But I am here to tell you that this personal, spiritual journey, HAD to be taken in order for me to learn what I have learned as a result of it. So I will tell you now, that in retrospect, the pain and suffering of my entire life HAS BEEN A BLESSING about which I can only touch upon the spiritual aspects. Without those experiences I would not now be receiving the epiphanies the Holy Ghost shares with me on an almost daily basis. A dam has burst, and in His Infinite Wisdom and Perfect Love, Father has personally seen to it that even me, His humble daughter, and loving servant, has been made aware that He KNOWS ME. THAT HIS BELOVED SON, Jesus THE Christ, LOVES ALL OF US, THAT Jesus LIVES in a manner and spiritual level which I had never experienced before even though I had already believed it, and I scarce can speak His name now without having my cup run over with joy that is impossible to describe, as it is other-worldly---it transcends all that is physical.
You may perceive Him as a monster. I can only offer that your perception is in error. And I would love to discuss with you where you came up with your current pov.
I really hate that intelligence here is equated with being better and greater than those with lesser intelligence. That is just really so sad to me. The idea that god created these birth defects for people to live/die with is more than disheartening. How are these bodies best suited for these people?
You misunderstand. The Intelligences which have always co-existed with God have a very different definition than the one you are equating with as used here on the earth. The Intelligences of the eternities are “beings” – they are not a statement of mans quantified IQ. Their existence as “beings” is in the “form” of Intelligence—it is who they are; uncreated because they have always existed--they have substance. Once they are organized and become spirit children of Father, He takes into consideration “who they are” – and they are all different – no two are exactly alike. Based on who they already are, Father then works with them, working out what type of physical body they will have, when they will come to the earth, their birth circumstances, etc., all being an important aspect of their fulfilling the requirement of getting their physical body in order for them to continue to progress throughout eternity. You should not view a birth defect as some type of punishment for having a low IQ – NO! Rather, I view individuals who are given bodies with defects as being blessed, as they are protected from the buffetings of Satan – something the rest of us MUST contend with in our learning the effects of good and evil. Those individuals have spirits which are fragile and sweet and who have already, most likely, proven themselves well enough in the pre-existence to be obedient and strong enough to not have to learn much in the second estate – they only need to receive their physical body and cover that part of their eternal requirement. In fact, they are pre-guaranteed that they will end up in the Celestial Kingdom. What a blessing!!!! This is not a punishment or put down for stupidity or misbehavior. That is just a worldly perception; not a spiritual perception.
God plans the demise of humans so that another human can serve? That is like me breaking the legs of one of my children so that the others can have the opportunity to take her meals and carry her around.
Again, you misunderstand. The early demise of any child before the age of accountability is ultimately a spiritual blessing for that individual. However, they fulfill more than one purpose; the first is to bless them with immediate entry into the Celestial Kingdom. The second is to provide others with an opportunity to serve one another. I see this as a win-win situation. However, I am seeing this situation through spiritual eyes. You are seeing it through worldly eyes and are not incorporating the spiritual significance of what is actually going on. This physical world was Created for our benefit; this does not mean, though, that what we see is real. The “Real” world is the spiritual realm. The physical world is temporary and has been set up as the stage or school for our learning. If all you are learning is about the physical world, then you are missing out on the spiritual world. It is the spiritual world which is real and which ultimately continues to exist in the eternities. This physical world is mortal and will die.
God assigned people to come to the earth right before he murdered everyone with the flood. That is really very disturbing. That's like me having babies and then drowning them before they are 8 so they can get to the CK.
You should read the books of Enoch. They will open your eyes to a much better understanding of why God caused the flood. Also, I have come to understand that many times, God destroys mankind while they are in the flesh in order to stop them from continuing to commit more and more sin. When seen in this light, such things as the flood are actually evidence of physical death in order to save man from permanent spiritual death.
As I see it, those who were born just before the time of the flood were most likely many of the fence sitters who couldn’t make up their minds for sure on who they should follow (i.e., either Jesus or Satan). They would have been the ones who would have sinned a great deal regardless of when they were brought to the earth. Noah and his family were the ONLY righteous people living on the earth at the time of the great flood. Please remember that just because they suffered this particular physical death, that they would have died anyway; they were mortal. It is NOT a statement or sentence meted out about where they will spend eternity. Mortal death is only physical death of the flesh body. The spirit lives on.
However the LDS church teaches that everyone must accept the LDS ordinances in order to have eternal life.
I know that this is what many LDS members SAY. But technically, they are not sharing this belief in complete context. In fact, I don’t think they really know what the complete context is. So they continue to say this in ignorance. They also appear to ignore everything else they know about God, His attributes, and His dealings with ALL of His children.
Here is my take on this. For the most part, the Bible is God’s history with His children who are of the lineage of His Son. Even the Book of Mormon, which is a second testimony of Christ, comes out of peoples who are of the House of Israel. Now, the first part of the Bible deals with ALL of God’s children. However, once we get to the time of Peleg, and eventually to Abrahm, the focus and historicity of the peoples then become focused on the Patriarchs, of which Abrahm, who is renamed Abraham, and with whom God covenanted. The Patriarchs are Abraham, Issac, Jacob, and Joseph. Jacob is also renamed Israel. So, it is with Jacob that we first hear of the title of the House of Israel through whom Christ is born. The covenant is made with Abraham AFTER Abraham has sent his first born son, Ishmael, along with Haggar, Ishmael’s mother, away from his household. Ishmael is not under the covenant. The record of Ishmael, as well as the records of the peoples who were dispersed at the time of the confounding of the languages at Babel, are not kept with the records of the House of Israel; for logical reasons. Even within the House of Israel, the Bible only remains a continuous record of the specific lineage of Christ and the tribe He came through, as the other tribes of Israel become dispersed and we have no defining records for them.
Yet, before any dispersing of the peoples, we do have records of God’s dealings with His children. I have no reason to think that God changed His methods or ways once the House of Israel is defined and identified. I believe that God continued to deal with ALL of His children; we just do not have those records. We do not have the records of His dealings with the Gentiles, and we do not have the records of His dealings with all of the tribes of Israel. Someday, I believe these records WILL be available to us. In other words, I believe that He continued to communicate with them, to guide them, to direct them, etc. Most likely He would still have called prophets among the various groups; just as we see that He did with the Nephites and the Lamanites. This is an exciting prospect to consider and ponder as it has the potential to yield so many consistent activities and results. One such result could be this: We have been taught that John the Beloved never tasted death. Likewise, we have been taught that three of the Disciples Jesus chose amongst the Nephites never tasted death. Thus, we know specifically of four individuals who hold the High Priesthood who have continued to serve God in the flesh – and very likely, they have been assigned by Him to serve in various places upon the earth. With this pattern set, I believe it is quite possible that there are others amongst both the Gentiles and the other tribes of Israel who have also been given the opportunity, who as chosen Disciples of Christ who were in other groups of people whom He visited after His Resurrection, who have never tasted death and who hold the High Priesthood and who serve Him wherever He sends them upon the earth.
Please do not take a jump here, though, in believing that holding the High Priesthood (Melchizedek Priesthood) is equal to also holding the keys of the kingdom. There are many levels of power and authority within that Priesthood; and, apparently, only one individual at a time is allowed to hold the very keys to the Kingdom of God at any one time upon the earth.
Let us move on to your concern. The keys of the Kingdom of God have periodically been taken from the earth; however, I believe that there are some, like the four mentioned above (and possibly even more), who hold some of the powers and authority within the Melchizedek Priesthood have always been available to do God’s work upon the earth, at least since the time of John the Beloved, followed shortly by the three Nephites. What God has allowed them to do with this power and authority is obviously not known.
In these latter days, the vehicle through which all ordinances can be performed with the proper power and authority is currently the LDS Church. However, you know that the LDS Church performs these ordinances on behalf of both the living and the dead. As such, I consider the LDS Church to be a kind of “worker bee” (if you will) on behalf of the entire earth when it comes to performing ordinances for those who have not yet had them performed through the other vehicles set up by God throughout the age of mankind. In other words, I believe that ordinances HAVE been performed at other periods of time on the earth. I doubt they were called the LDS Church. Once all the work has been completed during the Millenium, and Christ reigns as Lord of Lords and King of Kings upon the NEW earth, I do not think the name of His Church is going to be the CoJCoLDS.
To continue, I also do not believe that a person must be a member of the LDS Church to receive Salvation, achieve Exaltation, or to be able to enter any particular level of Heaven. We are saved by believing in and accepting Jesus as our Savior by virtue of His Atonement. The Church does not save us; no church can save anybody. Jesus saves us. The Church DOES perform necessary and required ordinances which can then either be accepted or rejected by the recipient. That is our privilege and our responsibility as the current holders of the keys of the Kingdom of God. This is how we are helping to prepare the people who are already members, or who will become members of the Church of the Lamb of God. I do not believe that the LDS Church IS that church; we are only a part of that church…the part that happens to be able to perform necessary and required ordinances because Jesus is using the LDS Church as His vehicle to do this work. But members of the Church of the Lamb of God are all over the earth. Some may not even be aware they are members. If they believe in Jesus and have accepted Him as their Savior, then they are members. If they are good people who do not know who He is, they are members but don’t know it. In other words, if they are doing good and are not against Him, then they are working for Him.
There are only, and have always only been TWO spiritual churches on the face of the earth. The Church of the Lamb of God, and the Church of Satan; albeit there have been many worldly churches to choose from. Anybody, no matter who they are, or what worldly denomination or religion they belong to (including members of the LDS Church) can and do, from moment to moment switch which church they are serving in. I think the best Biblical example to demonstrate this, is Peter.
I imagine this is quite enough for now. There is much to think and ponder on which I have offered. I have so much love for Father and my Savior, so much love for what has been revealed to me through sincere study and seeking of Truth, that I just cannot get enough. Apparently, I also cannot stop sharing. My cup runneth over.
Love,
jo
PS Franktalk just asked me to let you know that he is an Old Testament guru. Since you seem to have some serious issues with God in the Old Testament, he is letting you know that he would be happy to discuss the Old Testament with you.