The Dead

[_jo1952]

Hi JustMe, - Part I of II

Yes, I meant the third part who were damned with satan. I don’t see what they did that was damn-worthy. Maybe you could tell me what it was they did that was so terrible.

I will start first with scripture and then share my thoughts:

Rev 12:4
4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Nothing about actual damnation is mentioned there; just about being cast to the earth. I have more to say about this later in this post.

Anyway, Satan’s plan had several things going against it. The first was that he didn’t want to do Father’s will. Another was that he wanted to take away the free will of the rest of Father’s children and force them to accept him (Satan) as their god; thus usurping Father’s authority. This would have frustrated the purpose of our coming to the earth; as in addition to obtaining a physical body we would not have learned how to control it, how to learn the effects of choosing between good and evil, and there would have been no sin. Satan, by forcing others to accept him as their god, and removing the possibility of sin, would not have had to suffer for us or go through the process of atonement. Satan wanted all of the glory for doing this, which effectively took all glory away from Father, who was Satan’s spirit Father and God.

In addition, we know through various scriptures (many of them from the Old Testament), that Satan (who used to be known as Lucifer) had enjoyed a high position of authority in heaven. He was an arch-angel. We know that he was charismatic, was popular, was good looking, that he has a beautiful singing voice, and that he was also, obviously, prideful; letting his ego get the best of him to the point he thought he deserved taking over Father’s glory. Politically speaking, he was able to convince an entire third of the hosts of heaven to follow and support him instead of supporting Father and His Plan for us.

The effects of Satan’s plan are far reaching; beyond just trying to usurp Father’s position and Glory. By frustrating the Plan of Salvation and taking away our free will, we would also not have been able to progress in the eternities. Father’s desire is to share everything He has with us…including having us progress to godhood so that we are capable, through our own personal learning process, HOW to become gods like Him. Satan’s plan would have ultimately robbed us of any possibility to realize and achieve what Father had in mind for us. I doubt seriously that Satan would have been the loving type of god who would have wanted to share what he had with anybody else. In fact, there are verses in the Bible which manifest his great disdain for us as well as how he only uses us for his purposes, then has no compulsion to stand by those who choose to follow him in this physical existence.

I don’t think that those who chose to follow Satan made their decision lightly or quickly. They have existed eternally and knew exactly what they were doing and what they were chancing by following him. They willingly supported Satan’s attempt to put himself into the position of usurping Father’s glory. Here on the earth, they continue to try to frustrate the Plan of Salvation. Through Satan’s leadership, they have managed to lead man astray ever since the time of Adam. When Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness after Jesus had fasted for forty days and nights and had been physically weakened, all Satan needed to do in order to put an end to the Plan was to have Jesus bow down and worship him. Please remember that Satan offered Jesus the earth and all of its kingdoms in return for Jesus’ worship of him. Jesus never said that Satan couldn’t follow through with his promise of giving Jesus these things. That is because Satan is now the god of the earth itself – though he is NOT the god of the people who inhabit it. What WAS Jesus’ response to this offer?

Mat 4:10

Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Why do you think that unhappy people were fence-sitters? I am actually a little disturbed that you believe in a fence-sitter doctrine, to be honest. But, I understand where it is coming from. Why do you assume that those who liked satan’s plan better are “evil” or wicked or nasty, unhappy or miserable? Satan did not have an “evil” plan.

I am using “unhappy” in connection with those who are evil – not the general population who are unhappy from time to time because of their circumstances. I think that evil people (and I would consider someone like Mao or Hitler, etc., as evil), are not happy people; thus they are “unhappy”. Also, as explained above, Satan’s plan was, indeed, evil.
I don’t think there is a fence-sitter doctrine. This is conjecture on my part by pondering and trying to reason out what things may have been like in Heaven around the time Satan and his followers were cast out. It is also taking into consideration that no two Intelligences are alike. So I see that there is the possibility of an entire range and spectrum of personalities among the Intelligences, which would result in the same range and spectrum of personalities among the spirit children once those Intelligences have been organized.

I’ll be more clear. Satan offered to be sent, well we are told it is satan by the LDS leaders. (Abr. 3:27) Another guy also offered, now the LDS church tells us that it was Jesus, but I think that the alternative interpretation of it being Adam/Michael makes more sense.
What did he do that was so bad? Then, it says he didn’t keep his first estate. Well, what does that mean?

The LDS identify our first estate as our premortal life. The second estate is our physical life upon the earth. Here is what the Bible has to teach us:

Jude 1:6 King

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

In other words, even without any LDS preconceptions in mind, it appears that angelic beings who at some point lived or existed in one place then, either of their own accord or by God’s command, where sent into darkness, and they wait there for the day of judgment. There is only one chapter in the book of Jude, and it is very short. You may find it interesting while considering your questions.

I’m going to go out on a limb here. The information provided about the third of the host of heaven who were cast out with Satan as being the same angels being spoken of in Jude 1:6, comes from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism. Specifically, this portion of that book was contributed by Alexander L. Baugh, Associate Professor of Church History and Doctrine Brigham Young University—Provo. I do not agree with his interpretation of Jude 1:6; i.e., that the third of the host of Heaven who were cast out with Satan are the angels being spoken of in Jude 1:6. This would also mean that I do not think they have been damned. Of course, their resume doesn’t look so great right now. However, Revelation is very clear that it is Satan, The False Profit and the Anti-Christ who are thrown into the lake of brimstone and fire. I can expound on this if anyone wants me to.

When you say that god sends people at the best time to fulfill his purposes it makes god a user. We are all just pawns in some freakish nightmare of his.

Wow. I certainly cannot agree with you. It appears to me that He is giving us the best chance for us to be able to return to His presence.

As a parent, it would be beyond my comprehension to tell my younger children that in order to live with me and be a joint heir with the oldest child that they need to FIRST go live on their own SECOND have all memory of me and their oldest sibling removed (forget about the mother, she doesn’t even count) THIRD get beat up, raped, diseased, etc and FOURTH do so all the while thanking me and singing my praises because another memory challenged human told them that is what I wanted.

You have already admitted to me that life isn’t fair, that it can be sh***y, etc. Do you have any children? If yes, then why did you bring them into this world? Why would you subject them to life in the first place? Are you a monster for having brought them into this world?

This is where it will become very difficult for us to dialogue. You base a lot of your beliefs of fairness of the Plan on the concept that God has revealed his gospel over and over again since Adam. This just is not true. I worry that we will perhaps be talking past each other, but let’s see how this goes.
I do not feel comfort from the current LDS gospel message. Not in the least. The teachings do not make my life feel easier to handle or accept. It fails in that regard. Just because you and a very small fraction of the population find peace in it does not make the message itself true or peace-giving.

It has taken me a lifetime to get to the point of understanding I have. I am slow learner, I suppose. However, even without LDS “doctrine”, the Bible gives the same basic Gospel message. Reading and studying it with spiritual eyes has given me an entirely “new and improved” understanding.

Have you looked into any other denominations and their versions of the Gospel message? Perhaps you can find one which can provide the comfort you are seeking and not yet finding. For me, I find that LDS teachings are far more hopeful than any other Christian religious institution.

It sounds to me that it is not the LDS Church or its teachings that you are really having a problem with. It sounds like you are having a personal problem with God in general. Is this an accurate interpretation on my part? Your view seems to be more like that of an Agnostic; or, at the very least, someone who is currently very angry with God.

The fact that you are concerned that people will be punished by your god is telling. I think that is ultimately the purpose of the religion, to make life feel more fair. “It’ll all work out in the end.” That is the true message of the LDS gospel.

There are many layers of understandings and depths to the concept of “punishment” which would probably be more appropriate for a new thread, as our post is already so very long. Suffice to say that in learning the effects of our choices between good and evil will bring suffering, pain, happiness, joy, understanding, etc. Now, inasmuch as I don’t want anyone to suffer, I also recognize that it is necessary for us to suffer so that we can learn. If nothing else, personally suffering of any kind helps us to become compassionate for others who are suffering. If we did not personally experience suffering, we would have no idea how to relate to someone else who is suffering.

The reason the Gospel message IS Good News, is because it is giving us the reason we are here going through this process called life. In other words, if we do not learn the message, then we never can see a light at the end of the tunnel. We would be left without hope, or purpose.

I believe the teaching that god won’t give people more than they can handle is damaging and demonstrably false. I can’t fully express how much I hate this teaching.

I feel so much pain in your words.

I am glad you have found peace and solace in your belief in Jesus. Too bad only a small percent of the human population has ever heard of the guy.

You have heard of the guy; but it does not seem to have been of any help to you.

Thank you for sharing something so deeply personal. You have clearly been through a lot.

I hope that you will feel comfortable enough to also share with me. We could do this through private messages if would like to.

More coming.....

Love,

jo

[_jo1952]

Hi Just Me: Part II of II

I wouldn’t call your interpretation of your life crazy. I think it is a very human response to extreme hardship. It is how we deal. We either have to come up with some way to make our experience “right” in our minds or we may kill ourselves or lash out or just be hopeless and miserable.
Because you are in the LDS tradition, you couched your interpretation in that context and within that worldview. That is also normal. If you were, I don’t know, Muslim or something you would have couched your interpretation within that worldview.
People of all stripes have had rebirth experiences like you described with and without a Jesus belief. It is a very human experience. The way we describe it, or the deities or things we ascribe the experience to, depend wholly on the religion/culture that we are in or influenced by.

The only point I would differ on is that my current world view from a religious standpoint is not only in the LDS tradition. But it would be splitting hairs at this point to try to argue that I believe it is Christian tradition with some LDS thrown in. Your general message, however, I agree with.

Well, that would require me writing a short novel. LOL The god described in LDS theology and in the Old Testament is a reprehensible being. It all started with me questioning god commanded murder/killing/genocide. I am of the belief that a just, merciful, loving and benevolent god cannot also command or actually murder people. It is a contradiction. That is the short version.

(Don't look now; but I think we ARE writing a short novel......)

I would only offer at this point that my beliefs concerning the above are from a spiritual perspective; whereas I see your beliefs coming from a worldly perspective. There is literally a world of difference between them.

Okay, so there is a being inside the spirit inside the human body. Like a Russian doll set.  What makes some beings greater, better, more noble than others?

I think that this is how they have always been. Nobody made them that way; that is just who they are.

I’m not sure where I misunderstood. You seem to be saying exactly what I said. If dying before accountability is a blessing why don’t we kill children? Is it okay for me to kill a child? How about a severely mentally disabled adult who is unaccountable? What about old people who are no longer have their mental faculties in full use?
Is it okay for god to kill a child? Is it okay for god to kill unaccountable people?

I sure hope you don’t think I have all the answers, for most assuredly, I do not. I believe you are overlooking God’s purposes and His knowledge about each of us and OUR innate personalities which come from our Intelligences. He has known us eternally. He is working WITH and FOR us and our progression through this temporary, mortal, physical life---not against us. In other words, He knows that for those particular spirits, they could not have survived this life if they had been given “normal” bodies, or “safer” environments to be born into due to their fragile and sweet personalities. However, by obtaining their physical body, they are still able to continue to progress. He didn’t make them fragile, that is how they have always been. The other side of the coin for innocents whose blood is spilled, is that the perpetrator is going to have to pay for their crime. Those who die of starvation in poor countries are not dying because no-one has sent money or food or tried to train people how to grow food, etc., they are dying because monetary and material aide that is sent on their behalf is being squandered and used to line the pockets of greedy and wicked governments. These greedy individuals will also pay the price for their crimes. God is not taking away the free agency of the wicked. He IS, however, keeping track of their deeds. We don’t kill children or others because we don’t know who they were in the pre-existence. We don’t remember our own pre-existence while we are on this side of the veil. We also don’t shed innocent blood because God has commanded us not to.

I’m pretty sure that I have read at least part of the Book of Enoch. Anyway, what you are describing is god taking away the agency of man. I thought that was “evil.” Killing someone to prevent them making bad choices is exactly what LDS say god can’t do…Right? He can’t kill or take out child molester and mass murderers because that would take away their agency.

No, I am not describing God taking away their agency. It is their agency that got them into the trouble they were in. He did not force them to sin. They sinned so much that God stepped in to prevent things from getting even worse. They had already condemned themselves to the point where God was actually sorry that He had bothered to try to provide a way for them to progress. Their out-of-control sinning brought God’s wrath down upon them. Yet I do not believe that all of those who died in the flood are permanently damned. I believe that because they were punished by physical death, that their debt has been paid.

Do you really believe that everyone was “evil” but Noah and his family? Noah cursed his grandson because his son saw him naked. Noah was a winebibber. What are these crimes that the rest of the entire humanity was guilty of?

Yes, I do believe they were. My explanation would be covered in expounding upon Jude 1:6 should anybody wish to hear it, as I mentioned earlier.

If we are all going to die anyway then why not just kill people? Your statement makes life not all that precious, special or important. You also have different standards for god than the rest of humanity. If a man kills his children we do not emulate him or call him a loving father.

I really don’t know what I can add to what I have already said about this. Again, I think your issue is with God and how you perceive Him. I truly don’t think you have a spiritual awareness or understanding about Him. Something has happened in your life which is now blinding you. Even your expressed interpretation of what you think LDS doctrine is just isn’t correct as far as I can tell at this point.

It’s not just any members. It is one of the core doctrines of the LDS church today. No person can gain eternal life (exaltation) without first accepting all the LDS ordinances. I’m not sure how giving it context makes it any less elitist.

There IS a distinction. The ordinances are being performed by the LDS Church. However, they are God’s ordinances. The ordinances do not belong to the LDS Church. The ordinances are the contracts between God and each individual. The ordinances are NOT between God and the Church.

There are likely millions of humans who have lived who never even had a name. There are millions of humans who never married. These are problems for the LDS ordinance doctrine. I know that “everything will work out in the end” is the party line, but it leaves much to be desired.

I think that a thousand years with who knows how many people working with His direction, that God is giving us plenty of time to get everything done that needs to be done. “Oh ye of little faith” comes to mind as I see your negativity.

This is not the LDS position, but thank you for sharing your particular interpretation. I still think it is very elitist. One must be Christian AND accept the LDS ordinances. You separate being a member of “the church” with the ordinances. The church itself doesn’t really do that. In fact, the confirmation of the Holy Ghost also makes you a member of the church, there isn’t even an option to get the ghost without membership.

I don’t think you have the handle on LDS doctrine that you think you have. Also, “receiving” the Holy Ghost is an ordinance. It is not the method of being able to be guided and directed by Him. Think about it. Joseph Smith didn’t “receive” the Holy Ghost until years AFTER God had called him. Also, consider that when the keys of the kingdom were not upon the earth, the Holy Ghost still was.

WHEW!!!!!

Love,

jo

[_just me]

I will start first with scripture and then share my thoughts:
Rev 12:4
4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Nothing about actual damnation is mentioned there; just about being cast to the earth. I have more to say about this later in this post.
Anyway, Satan’s plan had several things going against it. The first was that he didn’t want to do Father’s will. Another was that he wanted to take away the free will of the rest of Father’s children and force them to accept him (Satan) as their god; thus usurping Father’s authority. This would have frustrated the purpose of our coming to the earth; as in addition to obtaining a physical body we would not have learned how to control it, how to learn the effects of choosing between good and evil, and there would have been no sin. Satan, by forcing others to accept him as their god, and removing the possibility of sin, would not have had to suffer for us or go through the process of atonement. Satan wanted all of the glory for doing this, which effectively took all glory away from Father, who was Satan’s spirit Father and God.

This is all speculation on your part, from what I can tell. Speculation based on LDS interpretation of scriptures that don’t actually say any of this.
I find it ironic, in a way, that Jesus got the glory and is worshipped for what he did. But I suppose that is ok and somehow different than Lucifer getting the glory and being worshipped for doing it…

<snip>By frustrating the Plan of Salvation and taking away our free will, we would also not have been able to progress in the eternities. Father’s desire is to share everything He has with us…including having us progress to godhood so that we are capable, through our own personal learning process, HOW to become gods like Him. Satan’s plan would have ultimately robbed us of any possibility to realize and achieve what Father had in mind for us. I doubt seriously that Satan would have been the loving type of god who would have wanted to share what he had with anybody else. In fact, there are verses in the Bible which manifest his great disdain for us as well as how he only uses us for his purposes, then has no compulsion to stand by those who choose to follow him in this physical existence.

But, you have said that God himself can kill us sometimes. If that is not removing of free will, I don’t know what is. If you kill someone to prevent them making certain choices or to punish them for other choices you are removing their free will, agency, whatever you want to call it.

Here on the earth, they continue to try to frustrate the Plan of Salvation.

That is God’s fault. He put them here. It must be part of his great Plan. In fact, it looks to me like they are a crucial part of the plan. For all we know they are all getting eternal rewards for doing their part.

I’ll be more clear. Satan offered to be sent, well we are told it is satan by the LDS leaders. (Abr. 3:27) Another guy also offered, now the LDS church tells us that it was Jesus, but I think that the alternative interpretation of it being Adam/Michael makes more sense.
What did he do that was so bad? Then, it says he didn’t keep his first estate. Well, what does that mean?

<snip> I can expound on this if anyone wants me to.

I think you addressed this in the previous part of your comment.

When you say that god sends people at the best time to fulfill his purposes it makes god a user. We are all just pawns in some freakish nightmare of his.

Wow. I certainly cannot agree with you. It appears to me that He is giving us the best chance for us to be able to return to His presence.

Perception is an interesting thing.

As a parent, it would be beyond my comprehension to tell my younger children that in order to live with me and be a joint heir with the oldest child that they need to FIRST go live on their own SECOND have all memory of me and their oldest sibling removed (forget about the mother, she doesn’t even count) THIRD get beat up, raped, diseased, etc and FOURTH do so all the while thanking me and singing my praises because another memory challenged human told them that is what I wanted.

You have already admitted to me that life isn’t fair, that it can be sh***y, etc. Do you have any children? If yes, then why did you bring them into this world? Why would you subject them to life in the first place? Are you a monster for having brought them into this world?

I had children because I was taught from a very young age that that was my mission in life as a female. As a female, I am also biologically driven to have offspring.
However, I do not kick my children out of my home, wipe their memory of me and then leave a misty trail for them to follow back to me…all the while having planned very terrible events to happen to them. I’d say that is a very different thing indeed.

Have you looked into any other denominations and their versions of the Gospel message?

Yes.

It sounds to me that it is not the LDS Church or its teachings that you are really having a problem with. It sounds like you are having a personal problem with God in general. Is this an accurate interpretation on my part? Your view seems to be more like that of an Agnostic; or, at the very least, someone who is currently very angry with God.

I have a problem with the god described by the Bible…the Christian god and the theology surrounding him is very unappealing to me. I am not angry at him since he is make believe. We have really not even touched the surface of LDS doctrines I have issue with.
While I do not care for labels and feel that whatever label I give myself may give you a false idea of my beliefs I will give it a go. It might be best described as an atheistic pagan. I enjoy symbol and ritual.

The reason the Gospel message IS Good News, is because it is giving us the reason we are here going through this process called life. In other words, if we do not learn the message, then we never can see a light at the end of the tunnel. We would be left without hope, or purpose.

I disagree, of course.

I believe the teaching that god won’t give people more than they can handle is damaging and demonstrably false. I can’t fully express how much I hate this teaching.

I feel so much pain in your words.

I’ve seen how this teaching makes people act and feel and it ain’t pretty.

I am glad you have found peace and solace in your belief in Jesus. Too bad only a small percent of the human population has ever heard of the guy.

You have heard of the guy; but it does not seem to have been of any help to you.

Mmm, I wouldn’t say that. My point was that it wouldn’t be right and just and merciful for Jesus belief to be denied to most of the human population if it was The Method of hope and peace and all that jazz.

[_jo1952]

I enjoy reading your point of view, Jo - thanks for engaging us.

Concerning what you've posted above, it's my experience that the only people who view suffering as a blessing, you know, real life-altering bottom-of-the-pit suffering, are LDS who haven't suffered a whole lot.

Hey LDST!!

I think there are many different types of suffering. The worst suffering I have endured was of a spiritual nature. For instance, when I thought that God had forsaken me, I was not suffering a temporary-type of worldly suffering. It was not physical pain which is a pain that would cease at the moment of physical death. Rather, it was a suffering I thought was going to last for eternity - that there would never be an end or release from it. That type of perception leads to an entirely different kind and level of pain and suffering.

Everyone experiences sorrow to some degree, but as fat-cat North Americans, most of us don't understand the first thing about suffering. When LDS get up to the pulpit during F&T meeting and cry because they've lost their job or have just found out their mom has cancer, these things are not happy moments, but they also don't measure up against the poverty, war, violence and terror that a vast swath of humanity experiences every single day of their lives. And yet, I find that North American LDS are constantly seeking simpatico with true suffering in some vain attempt to justify the receipt of further blessings, or to display that they are in God's sight.

I agree that, in general, circumstances in the USA have been much better than for other countries; but we have never been completely free of conditions you described. I would also offer that suffering is relative. It is also still quite personal and is a trial to go through whatever the cause. The same lessons can be learned as a result of experiencing pain and suffering, regardless of the cause.

I take some offence on behalf of those you point your "vain attempt" comment toward. If you have not walked in their shoes, you have no idea what they have or are personally experiencing. Just because you do not perceive it as a big enough trial to warrant spiritual growth is your problem; not theirs. Any degree of suffering can help teach us in our line upon line, precept upon precept journey. Personally, I choose to rejoice that they ARE advancing in their journey; rather than sit in judgment by belittling their experience.

At the point of my epiphany in seeing more clearly what the true purpose of my suffering was FOR, my spirit being awoke to a whole new world. I DO now see suffering as a blessing; but I went through hell to get there. Has this stopped my pain and suffering? Absolutely not! I am no heroine, but I do suffer daily over illnesses there are no cure for. They changed my life about six years ago, and I am now permanently disabled - forced into an early retirement with many personal freedoms and choices no longer available for me to make. The difference since my epiphany? They pain and suffering still control my physical body; but my spirit has been healed and set free. Every morning I am still reminded by my body; but every morning my spirit is reborn. My perception has completely changed for the good.

Suffering is not a blessing. Suffering is hell.

H.

I used to feel the exact same way.

Love,

jo

[_just me]

The only point I would differ on is that my current world view from a religious standpoint is not only in the LDS tradition. But it would be splitting hairs at this point to try to argue that I believe it is Christian tradition with some LDS thrown in. Your general message, however, I agree with.

Sweet! (that we agree, and I do see what you’re saying)

Well, that would require me writing a short novel. LOL The god described in LDS theology and in the Old Testament is a reprehensible being. It all started with me questioning god commanded murder/killing/genocide. I am of the belief that a just, merciful, loving and benevolent god cannot also command or actually murder people. It is a contradiction. That is the short version.

(Don't look now; but I think we ARE writing a short novel......)
I would only offer at this point that my beliefs concerning the above are from a spiritual perspective; whereas I see your beliefs coming from a worldly perspective. There is literally a world of difference between them.

It is so interesting to me that my belief that killing/murder/genocide is always a negative thing is seen as the worldly POV. Does that mean if I was more spiritually minded I would be a-okay with genocide? Cuz, if so, I don’t think being spiritually minded is a healthy thing individually or for the community at large.

I sure hope you don’t think I have all the answers, for most assuredly, I do not.

;)

<snip>God is not taking away the free agency of the wicked. He IS, however, keeping track of their deeds. We don’t kill children or others because we don’t know who they were in the pre-existence. We don’t remember our own pre-existence while we are on this side of the veil. We also don’t shed innocent blood because God has commanded us not to.

Except when he does command the shedding of innocent blood, right? Then it is okay.
And god takes away the agency of people every time he kills them (see Flood).

No, I am not describing God taking away their agency. It is their agency that got them into the trouble they were in. He did not force them to sin. They sinned so much that God stepped in to prevent things from getting even worse. They had already condemned themselves to the point where God was actually sorry that He had bothered to try to provide a way for them to progress. Their out-of-control sinning brought God’s wrath down upon them. Yet I do not believe that all of those who died in the flood are permanently damned. I believe that because they were punished by physical death, that their debt has been paid.

What did they do that was so bad?

Yes, I do believe they were. My explanation would be covered in expounding upon Jude 1:6 should anybody wish to hear it, as I mentioned earlier.

That makes me sad you believe that. The only thing you base this belief on is that some dude wrote it down in some old book. You have no other basis for this judgement.

<snip>I truly don’t think you have a spiritual awareness or understanding about Him. Something has happened in your life which is now blinding you. Even your expressed interpretation of what you think LDS doctrine is just isn’t correct as far as I can tell at this point.

This is very typical of what a TBM would say about an apostate, I believe. So, while not surprising it is somewhat offensive and disappointing. I am not trying to articulate an LDS interpretation of the scriptures. Not at all. This is how I currently see LDS doctrine and biblical teachings. Of course, I know how LDS interpret it all…although I am willing to admit that I am getting more and more removed from that worldview. I’m pretty sure I can recall the faithful version, though.

There IS a distinction. The ordinances are being performed by the LDS Church. However, they are God’s ordinances. The ordinances do not belong to the LDS Church. The ordinances are the contracts between God and each individual. The ordinances are NOT between God and the Church.

I think this might be another splitting hairs case. I could go more into why this is still problematic to me, but I already know the LDS answers and they are not satisfying to me.

I think that a thousand years with who knows how many people working with His direction, that God is giving us plenty of time to get everything done that needs to be done. “Oh ye of little faith” comes to mind as I see your negativity.

Gee, thanks. I will point out that again we have the “everything will work out in the end” doctrine that is the core of the LDS religion. Why should I have faith that it will just all magically work out in the end thanks to Jesus based on what other human beings tell me?
PLUS, the whole premise is that these ordinances offer blessings and that having the gospel is a blessing IN THIS LIFE. That means that A LOT of humans have been denied these blessings.

I don’t think you have the handle on LDS doctrine that you think you have. Also, “receiving” the Holy Ghost is an ordinance. It is not the method of being able to be guided and directed by Him. Think about it. Joseph Smith didn’t “receive” the Holy Ghost until years AFTER God had called him. Also, consider that when the keys of the kingdom were not upon the earth, the Holy Ghost still was.

Yeah, sorry. I was being a little flip and obviously simplistic in my response. My point is that in the confirmation ordinance you are also made a member of the LDS church…you aren’t able to opt out of that portion of the ordinance.

[_jo1952]

Sweet! (that we agree, and I do see what you’re saying)

Yay!!!

It is so interesting to me that my belief that killing/murder/genocide is always a negative thing is seen as the worldly POV. Does that mean if I was more spiritually minded I would be a-okay with genocide? Cuz, if so, I don’t think being spiritually minded is a healthy thing individually or for the community at large.

I will admit that this issue over God's commands to wipe people out is difficult to understand. But if you are really concerned about it and sincerely want to understand it, you can. However, you are going to have to put in some serious study time and effort on your part. Yet, the answers ARE right there in the Bible. You don't need to go to any other source, although there are other sources available. However, if you want to be a purist about keeping your searching using only the Bible, it can be done. The only other tools you might want to consider would be a Hebrew dictionary which will help you understand what the Hebrew words more accurately mean, as it is very difficult to translate Hebrew into satisfactory English words which grasp the correct use of the Hebrew word.

Now, PLEASE do not confuse my understanding of what happened to these people with the thought that I feel no compassion or sorrow on their behalf. And PLEASE do not think that I believe "well, they had it coming; and it serves them right." NO, NO, NO! And not for one moment do I believe that God felt any pleasure in doing it; or that He got any kind of ego rush out of it. This also can be discovered by studying the Old Testament.

Also, be aware that I would not normally advise anyone to use other tools, such as a Hebrew dictionary, because I believe that the message God wants us to understand can be delivered by the Holy Ghost. However, in this case, you are really hung up on something you do not understand. Also, as you have told me, it really depresses you to read the Old Testament. So I am offering another solution to help you get to the point of at least understanding the concepts behind the messages that are being taught in the Old Testament.

Sodom and Gomorrah are more easily understood concerning their sins. For instance, we can see how depraved the people who lived there were by their reaction to the two angels who showed up, whom Lot brought to his house for safety reasons. It's pretty sickening to think that the men of the city wanted access to the angels so that they could "have their way with them" (the polite version). Even if they were unaware that they were angels, they were still Lot's guests. But the people were so engrossed in the sinful lives they were living, nothing mattered to them accept the gratification of their sexual desires.

Now, as for the other groups of peoples whom God destroyed. They had the seed of fallen angels in their gene pools. The fallen angels had corrupted mankind...all except for Noah's line. This was huge deal; and I believe it completely frustrated the Plan of Salvation. So God did something about it.

Genesis 6:8-9

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Read all of Genesis 6 carefully. I believe that the fallen angels discussed in the books of Enoch are the very same sons of God being referred to in Genesis 6. This is what I think was taking place:

In one of the books of Enoch, two hundred angels, who were also known as Watchers (the job description title of a position held among angels), took an oath between themselves. These angels came to the earth and revealed themselves and lusted after the daughters of men. Now, the reason I believe that the sons of God referred to in Genesis were angels and NOT men born on the earth, is due to the verbage used which next describes the daughters. They are not referred to as daughters of God; but, rather, daughters of men. According to Genesis, these sons of God, TOOK the daughters of men "of all which they chose" - In other words, it sounds like the daughters of men had no choice in the matter. Anyway, their offspring were giants, a.k.a. nephilim:

http://www.nwcreation.net/nephilim.html

In Genesis 6:4 we discover that giants were in the land not only at the time of flood, but also after the flood. So it would seem that other angels came to the earth and did the same thing as the original 200 angels had done. I believe that Goliath was a nephilim. However, due to the promise God made with Noah to never again destroy the earth or those living on it again by flood, we see evidence of the nephilim in many books of the Old Testament.

Here, I believe Daniel is talking about the fallen angels:

Daniel 2:43 (part of Daniel's interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's dream)

43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

All of the angels who fell and had offspring with the daughters of men have been sent to the place prepared for them. They wait there as taught in Jude 1:6

Jude 1:6

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Another reason that I do not believe that the third of the host of Heaven who were cast out are the the same angels described in Jude is because they were "cast out"; they did not just "leave their own habitation". Also, Satan and his followers are obviously NOT in chains. They are free and still wreaking havoc upon the earth.

This is very typical of what a TBM would say about an apostate, I believe. So, while not surprising it is somewhat offensive and disappointing. I am not trying to articulate an LDS interpretation of the scriptures. Not at all. This is how I currently see LDS doctrine and biblical teachings. Of course, I know how LDS interpret it all…although I am willing to admit that I am getting more and more removed from that worldview. I’m pretty sure I can recall the faithful version, though.

JustMe, I have never even thought you were an apostate!! Where does being angry with God or not understanding God describe an apostate?!!! What I am seeing is someone who is torn with the pain of loving God and desiring Him NOT to be the type of God which you fear He might be. I think the reason that you are stuck at this place is because you are confused about the purpose of our physical existence rather than focusing on the spiritual realm within which this physical world currently exists. Our spirit beings are only going to be in this condition for a mere moment of our eternal existence; but existing in this physical world inside of bodies made of flesh and bone, being drawn to the temptations of this world, and being unable to escape it while we are living in it, is very difficult. Yet it is the reason we are here to begin with; to receive the education which it is providing to our spirit, which education is required for our eternal progression. In order to recognize this, however, our spirit needs to awaken to this knowledge.

Also, regardless of whether you do or do not have a correct interpretation of LDS doctrine is an entirely different issue than the issue you are having with God. You are the one who told me that you can't even read the Old Testament becauses it depresses you. Inspite of any church's interpretation of the Old Testament, the words in the Old Testament are still the same words in the Old Testament. You are describing your inability to even read them because your personal interpretation of them causes the anger you have with God. In fact, due to your interpretation, I am not surprised you are angry with God or that you think He is a monster. What does that have to do with the LDS Church? What does that have to do with ANY church? I also doubt seriously that you would be able to find a Christian denomination whose interpretation of the Old Testament would make you feel any less depressed about what is written there.

I don't know if you will comfort in the following; but you are not alone in the confusion and love/hate feelings that you are experiencing. You are not the first to feel this way; you will certainly not be the last....sigh.

I think this might be another splitting hairs case. I could go more into why this is still problematic to me, but I already know the LDS answers and they are not satisfying to me.

I appreciate your honesty. Please know that they do not shock me or dissuade me in any way. You are a child of God no matter where you hang your hat. You may not realize it, but you are actually learning as you are going through this struggle. You are right where you are supposed to be in your journey. If your journey takes you to another religion where you can find the peace and solace your are seeking, and where you can strengthen your relationship with God, then that is where you are supposed to travel! I truly and firmly believe this.

Gee, thanks. I will point out that again we have the “everything will work out in the end” doctrine that is the core of the LDS religion. Why should I have faith that it will just all magically work out in the end thanks to Jesus based on what other human beings tell me?

As far as I am aware, the LDS Church is the only Christian religion which believes this. As far as your faith is concerned, your faith should be placed in Christ; not in any church. No church can save a single person. Christ can save everybody. So don't be depending upon what ANY human being tells you. It is the Holy Ghost who is THE witness of ALL truth here on the earth.

PLUS, the whole premise is that these ordinances offer blessings and that having the gospel is a blessing IN THIS LIFE. That means that A LOT of humans have been denied these blessings.

Well, understanding the Gospel while you are still alive IS a blessing which can be enjoyed in this life. One of Paul's biggest laments was that his Jewish brethren did not understand that Jesus was the promised Messiah, AND that Jesus WAS the God of Abraham whom they DID believe in. Thus, their blindness denied them the joy of this news.

NO! The ordinances are the contract and promises made between Father and each individual. Members of the LDS Church too often blur the lines of distinction. The Holy Ghost is the witness and the one who reveals Truth. He is available 24/7, and has been the "Comforter" since the original day of Pentecost after Jesus' Ascension. He was also around to witness the Truth of the Gospel message even before Jesus came to the earth. You can find evidence of this in the Bible as well as in the Book of Mormon. As soon as anyone ever believed or exercised faith in Jesus, the Holy Ghost has been there to witness to them.

Father delights in blessing His children and has always done so whenever He is able to. When they did not have the gospel message to bring them blessings, there were other ways He would bless them. This is all in the scriptures. It is just that the Gospel Message is the most joyful blessing we can access while in this life. Why do you think He wants this message to be spread to all of mankind?

Think about this, even Jesus, while He was on the earth (which is the same limiting condition of being on the earth for any of us) was only able to convert relatively few people. If He was only able to convert a few, we each can only expect to do so much. It takes everyone who HAS received the Gospel message to then share it with as many others as they can in order for the message to spread all over the earth. The catch is, that not everyone who hears the message will accept it. Jesus taught thousands; yet everyone He taught did not accept His teaching. He nor Father are going to force anyone to accept Jesus.

Now look and see how even Christians have always fought amongst themselves. Today's biggest scapegoat Christian religion is the LDS Church. In days past other denominations were the scapegoat Christians. How clever Satan is to be whispering in the ears of those who DO believe in Jesus, and destroy God's work from the inside.

Yeah, sorry. I was being a little flip and obviously simplistic in my response. My point is that in the confirmation ordinance you are also made a member of the LDS church…you aren’t able to opt out of that portion of the ordinance.

I believe that the LDS Church will be dissolved once all of the work is completed. Also, the work is being done for the dead regardless of our knowing if they are going to accept that work. So being a member of the LDS Church is really ultimately irrelevant. It is the ordinances themselves which ARE relevant. The LDS Church is currently the vehicle to get this work done. I don't see why everyone makes such a big deal out of the fact that the LDS Church is keeping the records of the work that she is doing, since she is the Church that is doing it. In Father's eyes, He just wants the work to be done because HE requires that the ordinances are completed. He doesn't want to see any of His children miss out on the blessings that are attached to the ordinances, so He has provided a way for them to be taken care of. Good grief..... This is liking hearing someone complain that Father isn't forcing everyone to accept Jesus, while at the same time complaining if they think Father HAS intervened and removed their free agency in any way.

Much love to you!!

jo

[_Ceeboo]

The new MDB addition of Jo1952 has been an enormous treat! :)


Sincerely,
Ceeboo

[_jo1952]

The new MDB addition of Jo1952 has been an enormous treat! :)


Sincerely,
Ceeboo

Gosh Ceeboo, for once I am speechless.

Love,

jo (as she again reaches for her box of kleenex)

[_jo1952]

It doesn't really help.

I think that it does little to comfort the families who have lost children to horrible accidents, mothers who have lost children to starvation, etc. I, being a somewhat amoral being by my own estimation, would help a child if I had the power to help and saw that child starving to death or being murdered. I have a hard time conceiving of a "moral", omnipotent being that wouldn't do the same.

Hi Keith,

Sorry, somehow I missed this post. My comments weren't offered as some kind of balm for suffering. They are more for helping us understand. Until someone FULLY understands (and this may never happen in this life time), peace and solace will not be reachable. However, during the journey of understanding, individuals can begin to find levels of comfort and relief.

I know it is difficult to wrap your head around ideas that seem to conflict. I have found that you can't just take one piece of scripture and "get it" until after you have put as many of the pieces of the puzzle together as you can. I haven't gotten there yet---many passages are beyond my current ability to understand them.

And, if such a being does exist, I see no reason why it would be moral for me to worship that being and hold that being up as the highest example of morality in the universe.

I'm going plant a seed in your head. This seed is going to stay in your head and will come to mind from time to time to be pondered...even when you have not bid it to come to the surface. As a result, you are soon going to see everything that goes on in your life through the lense of this seed. By the time you read this it will be too late to un-read it, so feel free to swear at me for putting it there. Over time, the seed is going to grow because your awareness about the possibilities increases.

Imagine yourself as being the god who has possession of everything that you can physically see---the earth around you, the moon, the stars, the universe. You have a huge bunch of children because, after all, you are god and can have and/or do anything you want...and the goddesses around you think you are a great catch and you have allowed them to "catch" you. The personality of every single one of your kids is different. You want to prepare them for inheriting parts of your holdings at some future date. Now, we are currently keeping all of this in the physical realm which you are able to access and identify easily.

The puzzle is now for you to piece together some answers such as where did all your holdings come from, or how can you increase your holdings, or how are you going to teach your children to take care of them without squandering them so that there is never an end to the holdings. In real life, a man can work his entire life building wealth for his family. Usually, by the third generation, there is nothing left of the wealth. As a god, however, you have the ability to avoid the pitfalls mere mortals make.

Love,

jo