Jason Bourne wrote:Mostly yes. Some days I feel like should jump ship. But the cost is high. Other days I think I really do like a life of faith even though I have serious doubts about it all, lean agnostic at times these days, or at best maybe a deist approach. Other days I just really want the Church to be what it claimed but that genie is out of the bottle and I do not know how to put it back.
When I feel like this, which is increasingly frequent, it always makes me smile to think of Professor Van Helsing's definition of faith in the novel Dracula:
Faith is when you believe something you know is not true.
(I hope I am not beating that quote to death, but it really hits the stake on the head for me.)
All the Best!
--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
Terryl Givens is a great person, as are his wife and daughter Rachael (he's got other children too, but I have only gotten to know one). I may not agree with some of Terryl's arguments and positions related to Mormonism, but he is a very well read, articulate, and caring person--and makes a mean guacamoli to boot! His wife is awesome. If all people in my local ward were like her, I might reconsider my activity. She is quite open minded pluralistic in her religious views. As for Rachael, I expect great things of her. I think she's applying to grad school this year.
Last edited by Hawkeye on Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I listened to the podcast and came away thinking that Teryl does mental gymnastics better than anyone. In fact, I kind of envied him. If only I could view things the way he does, it would make my life so much easier. But at the end of the day, I just can't make the evidence fit his conclusions.
Fifth Columnist wrote:I listened to the podcast and came away thinking that Teryl does mental gymnastics better than anyone. In fact, I kind of envied him. If only I could view things the way he does, it would make my life so much easier. But at the end of the day, I just can't make the evidence fit his conclusions.
The evidence doesn't fit the conclusions because he makes money forcing the evidence fit the conclusions. However, I like what I have read of him. Now, if only he would quit saying that Sandusky (or was it Montrose) is on the Illinois side of the river, I would take him more seriously. My perceptions of him are generally positive, and those of you who have met him confirm that he is a nice guy. Deceived, maybe, but nice.
Huckelberry said: I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.
Jason Bourne wrote:He admits that the Church has really dumbed down (My words) what it teaches and promotes and that the Church is bleeding members. He believes that in the age of the internet unless the Church takes steps to be more open about things it will continue to lose members.
This warmed my heart. I felt the spirit for the first time in years.
Fence Sitter wrote:You know if they were to hand out copies of Rough Stone Rolling along with the Book of Mormon to prospective converts I bet the retention rate of new converts would rise. I know it would probably cost them some converts but those would be the ones they would probably loose anyways.
Sounds just like an inoculation program, a level of acceptable bad outcomes and all.
Jason Bourne wrote:Mostly yes. Some days I feel like should jump ship. But the cost is high. Other days I think I really do like a life of faith even though I have serious doubts about it all, lean agnostic at times these days, or at best maybe a deist approach. Other days I just really want the Church to be what it claimed but that genie is out of the bottle and I do not know how to put it back.
This statement really hit home for me, because I so often have the same thoughts. Nice to know I'm not the only one.
by the way, I listened to the Givens podcast. Very enjoyable, but I got the strong sense that he is jumping through innumerable hoops to come across as a TBM. The mental gymnastics must give him headaches.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."
-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
I've only skimmed through Viper on the Hearth and I need to go back and give it a better reading. But I had formed a poor opinion of Givens based on some passages in his Book of Mormon work.
I first ran across these items when Charity was posting over here and crowing that academic historians and literary scholars were currently rushing to study the Book of Mormon in droves and thus legitimating it's worth. Her phrasing and the sources she cited sounded so odd that I googled them; her assertions were lifted straight out of Givens. To be sure, she greatly exaggerated the points he was making, yet I still found the original paragraphs somewhat problematic, with a few incorrect attributions and descriptions.
Anyway. its good to hear a different take on Givens.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
Jason Bourne wrote:Mostly yes. Some days I feel like should jump ship. But the cost is high. Other days I think I really do like a life of faith even though I have serious doubts about it all, lean agnostic at times these days, or at best maybe a deist approach. Other days I just really want the Church to be what it claimed but that genie is out of the bottle and I do not know how to put it back.
Rollo Tomasi wrote:This statement really hit home for me, because I so often have the same thoughts. Nice to know I'm not the only one.
by the way, I listened to the Givens podcast. Very enjoyable, but I got the strong sense that he is jumping through innumerable hoops to come across as a TBM. The mental gymnastics must give him headaches.
Well my friend I think our journeys and our positions have become surprisingly familiar even. And yes I thought the same thing about the hoops Givens was jumping through. I have done that though and I have tried to continue. I just cannot anymore. Even BCs approach to evolution and Church doctrine was something I tried to put my head around in times past. It just hurts my head to do so anymore.
I recently attended a presentation by Givens where he discussed his new bio of Parley P. Pratt and other stuff.
He told the story of being asked to join some of the Church PR guys in a presentation about Mormon beliefs to CNN staff in Atlanta to help them get up to speed when reporting about Romney. He told how, during the preparation for the presentation, it was obvious they had drastically different ideas about how forthcoming they should be.
It is certainly obvious that he operates outside of traditional LDS intellectual circles, and I hope he can be a positive influence on the Church without ruffling too many feathers in the COB.