Guilt and Denial

[_Buffalo]

Are you saying the guys in my elder’s quorum masturbate or look at porn? How do you know?

I hope someday you're called to be a bishop. :)

[_Runtu]

I apologize if I offend you Runtu, but I feel like we aren't even talking to each other so much as you talking at me. Why are you saying the Church emphasizes guilt and feel justified for thinking that because you recall reading that the Church counseled members not to use therapists who think guilt is a problem? For one thing, any member who receives such counsel doesn't necessarily read into that that the Church emphasizes guilt, I"m thinking. And for another, most members do not even hear any sort of counsel about therapists at all. This doesn’t even make sense in light of the context—thus, you talking at me rather than discussing.

I'm not offended at all. I've been a member of the church for 47 years now, and there has been a constant emphasis on guilt. If you haven't experienced that, well, that's fine, but it hasn't been my experience, and I could find more examples than I care to from the teachings of the church. The reference to the counsel on therapists was just one I'd remembered because even my believing wife thought it was weird. I was not "talking at you," but I was giving you an example of what I meant.

Then its something different from what I was thinking. And its fine. That’s a rather minor point. I just wish to question his claims.

By all means, question. No one should take anything at face value.

How are they total strangers? Who knows if the guy who doesn’t masturbate is sitting with his girl friends who say they do? I’m just saying if this guy wishes to say the 10% who didn’t raise their hands are lying why can’t others do the same?

He explained that, invariably, the 10% who don't raise their hands are religious conservatives. His informal survey, then, correlates precisely with what other studies (the 1998 study I mentioned, for example) report about religious conservatives' sexual habits, and it happens all over the country. Thus, people who lied and said they did masturbate would be outliers because they don't correlate with known evidence. Again, I could up with all kinds of reasons why a few people might lie in this instance (though I have a hard time believing it), but would they be enough to skew the sample? Not likely.

Are you saying the guys in my elder’s quorum masturbate or look at porn? How do you know?

I don't know, but if I apply statistical evidence of elders and their porn and masturbatory habits, I'm quite confident that a lot of your elders quorum does indeed masturbate and/or look at porn. Anecdotally, my experience as an elders quorum president, executive secretary, and HP group leadership in three different states tells me that the statistics apply pretty evenly to American Mormons, wherever they are.

I think it makes sense too, thus my comments that you seem to talk around for some reason. Oh well.

I didn't talk around your reasons. You suggested that higher standards mean higher guilt. As I explained, certain Evangelical groups have higher standards than Mormons, yet report less guilt. Something else is at work.

I don’t know if I can accept your anecdotal data as statistically valid either, Runtu, particularly in light of the claims that the religious put on a show when it comes to claims of being free of masturbation and porn. But I appreciate it. You lived in texas, right? My moms grew up in the real south, Georgia.

It's not anecdotal to say that certain Evangelical groups have higher standards, particularly about sex, than Mormons do. Certain Baptist congregations, for example, find dancing sinful and lustful, so they don't do it. That such groups show up in Ray's study with less guilt than Mormons is statistically valid in showing that higher standards do not mean more guilt.

[_Buffalo]

Somehow, I don't think this is a coincidence:

www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50291053-76/ ... s.html.csp

http://www.livescience.com/16633-suicid ... urvey.html

[_stemelbow]

Wow. Are you okay?

Me? Yes.

My point in posting them was so people could read what the church says about guilt.

The points previously stated is that grace is essentially non-existent in LDS teaching, as any conception of grace is deemphasized, and guilt is over-emphasized. sadly that is proven completely untrue. Grace isn't used as often as mercy for instance in LDS speak, but both are far more emphasized, as we can see than guilt.

Even with that, I also agree that guilt has its place in Mormon beliefs, and is not inherently bad.

[_Runtu]

The points previously stated is that grace is essentially non-existent in LDS teaching, as any conception of grace is deemphasized, and guilt is over-emphasized.

Who said it's nonexistent? Grace is spoken of in Mormonism, but it has been radically redefined, as AS said. Look at the definition in the LDS Bible Dictionary, for example.

[_stemelbow]

I'm not offended at all. I've been a member of the church for 47 years now, and there has been a constant emphasis on guilt. If you haven't experienced that, well, that's fine, but it hasn't been my experience, and I could find more examples than I care to from the teachings of the church. The reference to the counsel on therapists was just one I'd remembered because even my believing wife thought it was weird. I was not "talking at you," but I was giving you an example of what I meant.

Well, your point seems to have been disproven by a simple search provided by myself and Just me. "Constant emphasis" would have to be a deceptive way to put it. I"m not even arguing the guilt doesn't have its place and is not something LDS see importance in at all. I'm just plain saying there is deception being presented in this thread and someone ought to acknowledge it.

Then its something different from what I was thinking. And its fine. That’s a rather minor point. I just wish to question his claims.

By all means, question. No one should take anything at face value.

He explained that, invariably, the 10% who don't raise their hands are religious conservatives. His informal survey, then, correlates precisely with what other studies (the 1998 study I mentioned, for example) report about religious conservatives' sexual habits, and it happens all over the country. Thus, people who lied and said they did masturbate would be outliers because they don't correlate with known evidence. Again, I could up with all kinds of reasons why a few people might lie in this instance (though I have a hard time believing it), but would they be enough to skew the sample? Not likely.

It just seems like too round of numbers and too agenda driven to actually buy what he's saying for me. it could be true, but I don't think it matters.

I don't know, but if I apply statistical evidence of elders and their porn and masturbatory habits, I'm quite confident that a lot of your elders quorum does indeed masturbate and/or look at porn. Anecdotally, my experience as an elders quorum president, executive secretary, and HP group leadership in three different states tells me that the statistics apply pretty evenly to American Mormons, wherever they are.

Sheesh…What does this even matter? Perhaps my ward in particular is full of a bunch of outliers? Who cares right? Is your point to say that Mormons are bad, Mormons are just like the rest of religious folks, or guilty Mormons are liars?

I didn't talk around your reasons. You suggested that higher standards mean higher guilt. As I explained, certain Evangelical groups have higher standards than Mormons, yet report less guilt. Something else is at work.

I don’t think you are right. Which evangelical group places emphasis on works as a part of salvation as much as Mormons?

It's not anecdotal to say that certain Evangelical groups have higher standards, particularly about sex, than Mormons do. Certain Baptist congregations, for example, find dancing sinful and lustful, so they don't do it. That such groups show up in Ray's study with less guilt than Mormons is statistically valid in showing that higher standards do not mean more guilt.

I do still feel like I’m being talked at rather than having some sort of discussion. I mean you are the one who is saying they have higher standards. How are you defining this? Why do they have higher standards because of their dance restriction? That may not be a higher standard of anything other than craziness.

[_Buffalo]

The points previously stated is that grace is essentially non-existent in LDS teaching, as any conception of grace is deemphasized, and guilt is over-emphasized. sadly that is proven completely untrue. Grace isn't used as often as mercy for instance in LDS speak, but both are far more emphasized, as we can see than guilt.

Even with that, I also agree that guilt has its place in Mormon beliefs, and is not inherently bad.

http://LDS.org/search?lang=eng&query=sin
Sin 8,854 results

http://LDS.org/search?query=works&lang=eng
Works 30,039 results

http://LDS.org/search?query=shame&lang=eng
shame 835 results

http://LDS.org/search?query=Earn&lang=eng
Earn
3,410 results

http://LDS.org/search?query=worthiness&lang=eng
worthiness 998 results

[_stemelbow]

Who said it's nonexistent? Grace is spoken of in Mormonism, but it has been radically redefined, as AS said. Look at the definition in the LDS Bible Dictionary, for example.

I'm not sure what you're seeing. I didn't see him saying the word has been redefined by LDS. he said any conception of grace has been radically de-emphasized. That's a far cry from what you are saying he said. His words seem to amount to "essentially non-existent" to me. Maybe they amount to "extremely rare" or "largely scarce". I don't know. Either way, I think it was all much ado about nothing again.

[_stemelbow]

http://LDS.org/search?lang=eng&query=sin
Sin 8,854 results

http://LDS.org/search?query=works&lang=eng
Works 30,039 results

http://LDS.org/search?query=shame&lang=eng
shame 835 results

http://LDS.org/search?query=Earn&lang=eng
Earn
3,410 results

http://LDS.org/search?query=worthiness&lang=eng
worthiness 998 results

buzzwords. Thanks again, my man. LDS use words and ideas to express themselves, go figure. And sometimes their expressing of themselves differs from Buffalo. Go figure again.

[_zeezrom]

Greatest fear as a Mormon: losing temple worthy status.

At this very moment, my expired TR rests on my desk next to my empty coffee mug. Next to the TR rests a business card from a psychologist I visited shortly after losing temple worthy status. LOL.