Guilt and Denial

[_Runtu]

Well, your point seems to have been disproven by a simple search provided by myself and Just me. "Constant emphasis" would have to be a deceptive way to put it. I"m not even arguing the guilt doesn't have its place and is not something LDS see importance in at all. I'm just plain saying there is deception being presented in this thread and someone ought to acknowledge it.

You think I'm being deceptive? In what way? In my experience, there is constant emphasis on guilt, and I think a lot of Mormons would agree with me. You know, I have no problem with you disagreeing with me, and I've tried hard to explain my perspective here, even though you accused me of not addressing your comments--so again, I tried to explain and clarify. But I must say I'm taken aback that you think I'm presenting deception simply for presenting my opinion and experience. I don't know how to respond to that.

It just seems like too round of numbers and too agenda driven to actually buy what he's saying for me. it could be true, but I don't think it matters.

Again, this was part of his comments, not his study. That his anecdotal evidence coincides with his statistical evidence isn't surprising.

Sheesh…What does this even matter? Perhaps my ward in particular is full of a bunch of outliers? Who cares right? Is your point to say that Mormons are bad, Mormons are just like the rest of religious folks, or guilty Mormons are liars?

You asked me a question, and I answered it. Answering a question does not mean that I think Mormons are bad, like everyone else, or liars. Where is this coming from, stem?

I don’t think you are right. Which evangelical group places emphasis on works as a part of salvation as much as Mormons?

To me, that's a doctrinal issue, not one of standards. And I think you've hit the nail on the head: it's the emphasis on works in salvation that leads to the excessive guilt. Just my opinion, not trying to deceive.

I do still feel like I’m being talked at rather than having some sort of discussion. I mean you are the one who is saying they have higher standards. How are you defining this? Why do they have higher standards because of their dance restriction? That may not be a higher standard of anything other than craziness.

I am defining standards as the church defines them. Generally, "standards" in the church mean acceptable behaviors (hence, our ward's upcoming standards night, which our bishop informed us will be about sexual behavior, mostly). It's acceptable in the LDS church to dance, kiss, date without a chaperone, etc. Religions that don't accept such behavior can be said to have higher standards. Certainly, Islam has higher standard of modest dress than does Mormonism. I don't think this is saying anything controversial.

I'm sorry you are reading deception and hostility into my comments, which were not intended.

[_just me]

Mormon grace and mercy have to be earned. Mormons struggle a lot in teaching the concept of grace. It's a bit painful to listen to, actually.

In order to still believe in actual grace the LDS church has made some levels of grace. Everyone gets resurrected for free, they say. That is a free gift.

Actual eternal life and forgiveness must be earned.

[_Runtu]

I'm not sure what you're seeing. I didn't see him saying the word has been redefined by LDS. he said any conception of grace has been radically de-emphasized. That's a far cry from what you are saying he said. His words seem to amount to "essentially non-existent" to me. Maybe they amount to "extremely rare" or "largely scarce". I don't know. Either way, I think it was all much ado about nothing again.

Compared to traditional Christian teachings, yes, Mormonism does de-emphasize grace. You pointed out that Mormonism emphasizes works and personal righteousness as part of salvation. To most Christians, the notion that salvation or forgiveness can be earned is pretty heretical.

[_Buffalo]

http://LDS.org/search?lang=eng&query=sin
Sin 8,854 results

http://LDS.org/search?query=works&lang=eng
Works 30,039 results

http://LDS.org/search?query=shame&lang=eng
shame 835 results

http://LDS.org/search?query=Earn&lang=eng
Earn
3,410 results

http://LDS.org/search?query=worthiness&lang=eng
worthiness 998 results

buzzwords. Thanks again, my man. LDS use words and ideas to express themselves, go figure. And sometimes their expressing of themselves differs from Buffalo. Go figure again.

Just showing you that your argument (assuming you were serious) doesn't hold water.

[_Runtu]

Mormon grace and mercy have to be earned. Mormons struggle a lot in teaching the concept of grace. It's a bit painful to listen to, actually.

In order to still believe in actual grace the LDS church has made some levels of grace. Everyone gets resurrected for free, they say. That is a free gift.

Actual eternal life and forgiveness must be earned.

For reference, here's the Bible Dictionary entry for Grace:

Grace

Grace. A word that occurs frequently in the New Testament, especially in the writings of Paul. The main idea of the word is divine means of help or strength, given through the bounteous mercy and love of Jesus Christ.

It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice, that mankind will be raised in immortality, every person receiving his body from the grave in a condition of everlasting life. It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means. This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts.

Divine grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the fall of Adam and also because of man’s weaknesses and shortcomings. However, grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation, “It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Ne. 25:23). It is truly the grace of Jesus Christ that makes salvation possible. This principle is expressed in Jesus’ parable of the vine and the branches (John 15:1–11). See also John 1:12–17; Eph. 2:8–9; Philip. 4:13; D&C 93:11–14.

[_stemelbow]

You think I'm being deceptive? In what way? In my experience, there is constant emphasis on guilt, and I think a lot of Mormons would agree with me. You know, I have no problem with you disagreeing with me, and I've tried hard to explain my perspective here, even though you accused me of not addressing your comments--so again, I tried to explain and clarify. But I must say I'm taken aback that you think I'm presenting deception simply for presenting my opinion and experience. I don't know how to respond to that.

You respond fine. I’m not trying to be offensive, just honest. I don’t see how guilt can be the emphasis when it is mentioned less than other words that seem less offensive to you. For instance grace and mercy seem more emphasized to me than guilt. If that’s the case than what does it mean to emphasize a teaching? Perhaps its not a matter of deception so much as a matter of miscommunication.

You asked me a question, and I answered it. Answering a question does not mean that I think Mormons are bad, like everyone else, or liars. Where is this coming from, stem?

I didn’t say that answering a question means you think any of those. I’m asking you what your point is? It seems weird to me to accuse my own elder’s quorum of something when you don’t know any of them. What is the point in saying that? To get me suspicious of them? Heck I’m not even arguing there can’t be anyone in my elder’s quorum who masturbates or looks at porn. I don’t even care—their personal business.

I am defining standards as the church defines them. Generally, "standards" in the church mean acceptable behaviors (hence, our ward's upcoming standards night, which our bishop informed us will be about sexual behavior, mostly). It's acceptable in the LDS church to dance, kiss, date without a chaperone, etc. Religions that don't accept such behavior can be said to have higher standards. Certainly, Islam has higher standard of modest dress than does Mormonism. I don't think this is saying anything controversial.

I'm sorry you are reading deception and hostility into my comments, which were not intended.

Alright, so Mormons are more guilty than those Baptists you mention and more guilty than any known group of Muslems. Whatever. Have fun.

[_stemelbow]

Mormon grace and mercy have to be earned. Mormons struggle a lot in teaching the concept of grace. It's a bit painful to listen to, actually.

In order to still believe in actual grace the LDS church has made some levels of grace. Everyone gets resurrected for free, they say. That is a free gift.

Actual eternal life and forgiveness must be earned.

But salvation is given to all freely. I don't know if that is any worse than a traditional Christian perspective. it just so happens more are saved by grace for LDS.

[_stemelbow]

Compared to traditional Christian teachings, yes, Mormonism does de-emphasize grace. You pointed out that Mormonism emphasizes works and personal righteousness as part of salvation. To most Christians, the notion that salvation or forgiveness can be earned is pretty heretical.

Grace for salvation is granted to far more in LDS teaching than in any other Tradition Christian group. While I see that a particular talking point is often used here, I do not buy the explanation merely because its repeated.

[_Buffalo]

Mormon grace and mercy have to be earned. Mormons struggle a lot in teaching the concept of grace. It's a bit painful to listen to, actually.

In order to still believe in actual grace the LDS church has made some levels of grace. Everyone gets resurrected for free, they say. That is a free gift.

Actual eternal life and forgiveness must be earned.

But salvation is given to all freely. I don't know if that is any worse than a traditional Christian perspective. it just so happens more are saved by grace for LDS.

For Mormons "saved" is like purgatory. Saved is nothing. Exaltation is everything.

[_why me]

One thing I've realized recently is that the concept of "worthiness" is different in Mormonism than in other religions. Most Christian religions teach that we are all sinners, so worthiness comes from forgiveness, whereas in Mormonism it's our actions, combined with repentance, that determine our worthiness. So, we are constantly doing things to prove our worthiness, rather than accepting that, on our own, we are never completely free of sin and perfect, but that the Atonement makes us so.

This is not exactly true. Now it is true the many faiths have become more apart of the world when it comes to sexual sin. Many no longer even have sexual sins. The LDS church follows the new testament very closely. And in it, we find Paul being rather stern with sin. And of course, within the new testament there is a stress on perfection of the early saints.

And I don't think that the new testament stresses sin and foregiveness. But it does stress sin. Even Christ told people to sin no more. True we are all imperfect. The church does expect members nor the GA's to be perfect.