Guilt and Denial

[_Runtu]

You respond fine. I’m not trying to be offensive, just honest. I don’t see how guilt can be the emphasis when it is mentioned less than other words that seem less offensive to you. For instance grace and mercy seem more emphasized to me than guilt. If that’s the case than what does it mean to emphasize a teaching? Perhaps its not a matter of deception so much as a matter of miscommunication.

I have never said anything about word counts, as I don't think they provide context or really mean anything. In my experience, there was a constant emphasis on guilt: numbers weren't good enough, behaviors weren't up to snuff, performance was lacking. Any way you say it, to me, it was laying on guilt. Again, you perceive it differently. I don't think I misunderstood, and my point in mentioning the study is that, apparently, I'm not alone among Mormons in feeling a lot of guilt.

I didn’t say that answering a question means you think any of those. I’m asking you what your point is? It seems weird to me to accuse my own elder’s quorum of something when you don’t know any of them. What is the point in saying that? To get me suspicious of them? Heck I’m not even arguing there can’t be anyone in my elder’s quorum who masturbates or looks at porn. I don’t even care—their personal business.

Statistically speaking, I am confident (even if you aren't) that most elders do both of those things, but I doubt most would admit to either in a public setting. The author provides direct correlation with guilt: people who don't feel guilty readily admit to doing both of these; people who feel guilty generally do not. Again, this isn't that difficult, as it correlates quite well with the data from the study.

all right, so Mormons are more guilty than those Baptists you mention and more guilty than any known group of Muslems. Whatever. Have fun.

I started this thread because, for the first time in my life, I actually had some data that explained why I was so burdened with guilt. To me, this was an important discovery. That you've gone to such great lengths to dismiss my opinion doesn't make this any less important to me. And again, I'm surprised at the hostility from you. I don't get it.

[_Runtu]

But salvation is given to all freely. I don't know if that is any worse than a traditional Christian perspective. it just so happens more are saved by grace for LDS.

According to the Bible Dictionary, grace suffices only after total effort on our part. That's the difference.

[_just me]

This is what LDS.org says about "salvation."

In the doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the terms “saved” and “salvation” have various meanings. As used in Romans 10:9-10, the words “saved” and “salvation” signify a covenant relationship with Jesus Christ. Through this covenant relationship, followers of Christ are assured salvation from the eternal consequences of sin if they are obedient. “Salvation” and “saved” are also used in the scriptures in other contexts with several different meanings.

Additional Information
If someone were to ask if another person had been saved, the answer would depend on the sense in which the word is used. The answer might be “Yes” or perhaps it might be “Yes, but with conditions.” The following explanations outline six different meanings of the word salvation.

Salvation from Physical Death. All people eventually die. But through the Atonement and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, all people will be resurrected—saved from physical death. Paul testified, “As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:22). In this sense, everyone is saved, regardless of choices made during this life. This is a free gift from the Savior to all human beings.

Salvation from Sin. To be cleansed from sin through the Savior's Atonement, an individual must exercise faith in Jesus Christ, repent, be baptized, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (see Acts 2:37-38). Those who have been baptized and have received the Holy Ghost through the proper priesthood authority have been conditionally saved from sin. In this sense, salvation is conditional, depending on an individual's continuing in faithfulness, or enduring to the end in keeping the commandments of God (see 2 Peter 2:20-22).

Individuals cannot be saved in their sins; they cannot receive unconditional salvation simply by declaring a belief in Christ with the understanding that they will inevitably commit sins throughout the rest of their lives (see Alma 11:36-37). However, through the grace of God, all can be saved from their sins (see 2 Nephi 25:23; Helaman 5:10-11) as they repent and follow Jesus Christ.

[_stemelbow]

For Mormons "saved" is like purgatory. Saved is nothing. Exaltation is everything.

What does this matter? We're talking about how grace for LDS saves all, aside from those who choose not to be saved at all. Thus, grace isn't as de-emphasized as Runtu and AS and Just Me wish it were. Indeed, I don't know what they are even talking about when they say guilt is emphasized in LDS teaching and grace as a concept is radically de-emphasized in LDS teaching. They sound like posters over at CARM--no offense I"m just saying that's what they sound like.

[_stemelbow]

According to the Bible Dictionary, grace suffices only after total effort on our part. That's the difference.

no it doesn't say that. "It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice, that mankind will be raised in immortality, every person receiving his body from the grave in a condition of everlasting life."

It says grace is given to each and every person to receive an everlasting life. And we also know that no matter that degree of glory it will be glorious for them too. they receive glory.

[_Runtu]

What does this matter? We're talking about how grace for LDS saves all, aside from those who choose not to be saved at all. Thus, grace isn't as de-emphasized as Runtu and AS and Just Me wish it were. Indeed, I don't know what they are even talking about when they say guilt is emphasized in LDS teaching and grace as a concept is radically de-emphasized in LDS teaching. They sound like posters over at CARM--no offense I"m just saying that's what they sound like.

Now I'm offended. ;-)

Those CARM folks are nuts. They told me I wasn't Christian enough and was too tolerant of Mormons. I can't win for losing.

[_just me]

Here is a relevent clip from the above quote:

"...followers of Christ are assured salvation from the eternal consequences of sin if they are obedient."

emphasis mine

[_why me]

Actual eternal life and forgiveness must be earned.

Of course if one is engaged in the same sin over and over again and asks for forgiveness over and over again, I don't see forgiveness coming to lightly. And so yes, forgiveness must be earned. Unless god is a fool.

[_Runtu]

According to the Bible Dictionary, grace suffices only after total effort on our part. That's the difference.

no it doesn't say that. "It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice, that mankind will be raised in immortality, every person receiving his body from the grave in a condition of everlasting life."

It says grace is given to each and every person to receive an everlasting life. And we also know that no matter that degree of glory it will be glorious for them too. they receive glory.

Oh, for pete's sake.

Runtu: According to the Bible Dictionary, grace suffices only after total effort on our part.

Bible Dictionary: Grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient.

[_Runtu]

Of course if one is engaged in the same sin over and over again and asks for forgiveness over and over again, I don't see forgiveness coming to lightly. And so yes, forgiveness must be earned. Unless god is a fool.

Or unless God is merciful, despite our failings.