just me wrote:Here is a relevent clip from the above quote:
"...followers of Christ are assured salvation from the eternal consequences of sin if they are obedient."
emphasis mine
Which of course comes from the new testament as cited in your post above.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Runtu wrote: Or unless God is merciful, despite our failings.
What would be the point of attempting to live the commandments if god is merciful of our sins? No reason to change our sinful ways because god is merciful. I don't see a merciful god in the new testament nor in the old testament. I just see a god who is emphasising us to live the commandments. And to attempt to sin no more.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Buffalo wrote:For Mormons "saved" is like purgatory. Saved is nothing. Exaltation is everything.
What does this matter? We're talking about how grace for LDS saves all, aside from those who choose not to be saved at all. Thus, grace isn't as de-emphasized as Runtu and AS and Just Me wish it were. Indeed, I don't know what they are even talking about when they say guilt is emphasized in LDS teaching and grace as a concept is radically de-emphasized in LDS teaching. They sound like posters over at CARM--no offense I"m just saying that's what they sound like.
Grace is completely redefined. It's the free gift that no one wants (Terrestrial, Telestial). Anything that is emphasized as worthwhile (exaltation) requires your own works.
The posters at Carm, while not up to snuff on everything, probably understand the concept of Christian grace pretty well.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
That's right! Fear and guilt MUST be used in order to get people to act properly. Without FEAR, GUILT and SHAME we would all just run around raping and killing one another.
So, we can all finally agree that the LDS church uses FEAR and GUILT to get people to be OBEDIENT so that they can get some kind of reward when they die...or at least they won't be punished.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden ~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
why me wrote:Of course if one is engaged in the same sin over and over again and asks for forgiveness over and over again, I don't see forgiveness coming to lightly. And so yes, forgiveness must be earned. Unless god is a fool.
Or, it could be that God recognizes the human condition for what it is and thus He uses some other way. Grace, maybe?
Runtu: According to the Bible Dictionary, grace suffices only after total effort on our part.
Bible Dictionary: Grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient.
But that is New Testament the only point regarding grace made in the BD. It is also the divine gift given to all people for salvation. The nuance you left out was that this is in context saying the grace given to exaltation. That does not mean grace is not extended or given to all.
Love ya tons, Stem
I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
why me wrote:What would be the point of attempting to live the commandments if god is merciful of our sins? No reason to change our sinful ways because god is merciful. I don't see a merciful god in the new testament nor in the old testament. I just see a god who is emphasising us to live the commandments. And to attempt to sin no more.
We can attempt it, but no one lives the commandments perfectly, except Jesus. That's the whole point of the Atonement. If you can read the Bible without seeing God's mercy, I really don't know what to say to you.
Grace is not a free gift in the LDS theology. And if grace isn't free, it isn't grace.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden ~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
just me wrote:That's right! Fear and guilt MUST be used in order to get people to act properly. Without FEAR, GUILT and SHAME we would all just run around raping and killing one another.
So, we can all finally agree that the LDS church uses FEAR and GUILT to get people to be OBEDIENT so that they can get some kind of reward when they die...or at least they won't be punished.
Fear and guilt are normal feelings that all people feel at some poin tin this world. they are important in LDS thought because they help us see our weaknesses, rely upon God, subsequently teaching us to learn to love others, God and the very good that will bless people eternally. Its not as you claim.
Love ya tons, Stem
I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
Runtu wrote: Or unless God is merciful, despite our failings.
What would be the point of attempting to live the commandments if god is merciful of our sins? No reason to change our sinful ways because god is merciful. I don't see a merciful god in the new testament nor in the old testament. I just see a god who is emphasising us to live the commandments. And to attempt to sin no more.
If you believe in God, you might have faith that God will change your heart and help you desire to do what's right. Just a thought.
And given the Mormon track record on porno, I'd say guilt might not be as effective as this grace thing.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.