In Which Res Ipsa Abandons the Illusion of Control Over What People Post In a Thread f/k/a Thinking About ...

[Some Schmo]

Christ, this seems like an impossible issue for women. They're fighting centuries of "might makes right" thinking.

If I'm honest with myself, I can't think how I'd respond much differently than Lem has to any posts made in either thread. People tend to respond in kind when they perceive they're being attacked, or at the very least, misunderstood. There's no mystery there.

[asbestosman]

The issue is this is about individual behavior.

Let's not ignore context when "Q" does it as a response, but demand context when "x" does something so that context will help mitigate x's culpability.

If Q is constantly bullied by x, x doesn't get to complain when Q makes x uncomfortable for pointing out x is a bully because Q wasn't very nice about pointing it out. That x might lose out on scholarships because of it seems irrelevant.

[Res Ipsa]

I acknowledge that the burden shouldn't be on women to fix sexism. I also fear that leaving men to fix the problem among ourselves might turn out to be the blind leading the blind. I don't have the right answer to it--I'm part of the problem. I'll make my best effort and I will fail. But men are still obligated to make that effort.

Women deserve justice, but it seems that bringing someone to recognize, feel remorse, and change requires we offer some mercy as well. However, then we run into that whole "mercy shouldn't rob justice thing". Maybe we don't deserve mercy, and maybe when we're offered it we often misuse it to reoffend. And yet we also see some that appear to make progress like Some Schmo.

I think it requires us to think in ways that we're not used to thinking. I can't manage to wrap my brain (at least not yet) around how to apply justice in an asymmetric relationship. I find myself chasing my tail. I think that's part of the reason I focus on problem solving.

[Res Ipsa]

To be clear, Cam's been an asshole, too. His response towards Moksha was asshole behavior. I think Moksha probably didn't learn what he could have there, but those were bad learning conditions y'all gave him. He clearly didn't mean to offend, and suffered a foot-in-mouth foul. But hey, two dudes jumped on him and kicked him senseless so “F” them. Oh wait, one of them wasn't a dude and the other one was defending non-dudes? Hmmmm. Man, that really clouds the ethics of this issue don't it?

Nah. Assholes.

Honor, can I ask a favor? Can we leave the issue of personalities for another thread? An individual woman's personality shouldn't be relevant to one's stance toward feminism. And because men tone policing women is a part of the problem we're trying to solve, I don't think it's appropriate in this thread. I think talking about the impact of words on others is very different from placing a negative label on them.

[Res Ipsa]

I read her reference to male culture as not being limited to men’s treatment of women. Young men bully other men, and bond through their laughter over the victim of their bullying. I may have misunderstood...

Yes, i think you did. She made multiple references to how male culture mocks women, abuses women, laughs at women. She gave many, many examples. The entire thrust of her essay was noting how women feel when men treat them this way. She was not making men the focus of her piece, except to note how badly some men treat women. I do not think she would agree with using her essay as a starting point to talk about how men can treat men better.

Additionally, i posted her essay in an effort to express how women feel when men treat them this way. I have commented on that several times, on this thread of yours titled "thinking about feminism," but if your intent is to focus on how men treat men, then please leave feminism out of the title and don't misappropriate the essay i posted.

Carve out your space for men to treat men well, but please don't do it by misappropriating what i have said about how men treat women.

Hmm, I seem to have gotten off course a little here. I agree with her entire essay. This paragraph, before her list of examples, struck me as particularly insightful:

In the centuries of feminist movements that have washed up and away, good men have not once organized their own mass movement to change themselves and their sons or to attack the mean-spirited, teasing, punching thing that passes for male culture. Not once. Bastards. Don’t listen to me. Listen to each other. Talk to each other. Earn your power for once.

I can't speak to her intent, but only to her words. And I noted that her description of male culture is not limited to how men treat women. Do you agree that the male culture she describes also victimizes men? If so, do you think it's possible (or desirable) for men to eliminate that culture only when interacting with women? The goal is the most important things, but as a man who accepts that men are responsible for the problem and that it men's responsibility to solve it, I'm thinking through the most effective way to do that.

If I'm going to help solve the problem, I have to think about and talk about how to get men to change their behavior. You started a thread that is a pretty dramatic illustration of the problem. But if I understand and appreciate the problem and take on the responsibility for fixing it, focussing solely on the problem won't change anything.

I'm not trying to carve out a space for men to treat men well. If that's what you understood, then I expressed myself poorly. Having thought it through some more, I'm going to withdraw the ask.

[Res Ipsa]

Christ, this seems like an impossible issue for women. They're fighting centuries of "might makes right" thinking.

If I'm honest with myself, I can't think how I'd respond much differently than Lem has to any posts made in either thread. People tend to respond in kind when they perceive they're being attacked, or at the very least, misunderstood. There's no mystery there.

I don't know how I would either, but I'm sure there would be lots more swearing.

[Lem]

And I noted that her description of male culture is not limited to how men treat women. Do you agree that the male culture she describes also victimizes men? If so, do you think it's possible (or desirable) for men to eliminate that culture only when interacting with women?

The title of your thread is "thinking about feminism."

I'm not trying to carve out a space for men to treat men well. If that's what you understood, then I expressed myself poorly. Having thought it through some more, I'm going to withdraw the ask.

After honorentheos wrote 7 or 8 posts viciously attacking me personally, which you mildly addressed by quoting his one post including Doc, and asking him to do you the 'favor' of leaving personalities out of it, while I tried to follow through with your request. Good timing. But I am beginning to see your intent. Please leave my thread and my concerns with sexism out of it.

[honorentheos]

To be clear, Cam's been an asshole, too. His response towards Moksha was asshole behavior. I think Moksha probably didn't learn what he could have there, but those were bad learning conditions y'all gave him. He clearly didn't mean to offend, and suffered a foot-in-mouth foul. But hey, two dudes jumped on him and kicked him senseless so “F” them. Oh wait, one of them wasn't a dude and the other one was defending non-dudes? Hmmmm. Man, that really clouds the ethics of this issue don't it?

Nah. Assholes.

Honor, can I ask a favor? Can we leave the issue of personalities for another thread? An individual woman's personality shouldn't be relevant to one's stance toward feminism. And because men tone policing women is a part of the problem we're trying to solve, I don't think it's appropriate in this thread. I think talking about the impact of words on others is very different from placing a negative label on them.

Cool. Favor granted. What moved me to post was the comment directed at the post you made about the essay you expand on above, and the reaction that it was an attempt to make men-as-victims the topic. I won't go into it beyond that since you asked. But I don't think my target was personality or tone. It was content and repeat behavior.

[ajax18]

Amen and Awoman.

[Res Ipsa]

Honor, can I ask a favor? Can we leave the issue of personalities for another thread? An individual woman's personality shouldn't be relevant to one's stance toward feminism. And because men tone policing women is a part of the problem we're trying to solve, I don't think it's appropriate in this thread. I think talking about the impact of words on others is very different from placing a negative label on them.

Cool. Favor granted. What moved me to post was the comment directed at the post you made about the essay you expand on above, and the reaction that it was an attempt to make men-as-victims the topic. I won't go into it beyond that since you asked. But I don't think my target was personality or tone. It was content and repeat behavior.

Thanks.