science and reliion again but a new twist

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_CaliforniaKid
_Emeritus
Posts: 4247
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:47 am

Re: science and reliion again but a new twist

Post by _CaliforniaKid »

Chap wrote:Those people probably had the good sense to realize (six days out of seven) that the canidae representatives did a lot more good to them and their families than the non-stick-fetching non-intruder-deterring non-useful-while-hunting entity designated by an anagram of their common name.

LOL! I'm continually reminded how smart and clever my e-friends are. Good on you, Chap!
_Chap
_Emeritus
Posts: 14190
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Re: science and reliion again but a new twist

Post by _Chap »

asbestosman wrote: Why are so many famous scientists Jewish? It may be due to their culture where mothers are as proud of meeting a general as they are a professor.


asbestosman wrote:
Morley wrote:What does this mean?

I would probably have to look up exactly how he said it to do it justice. However, the general idea I got from him is that Jews may place more value on education than most other groups in general.

What it means for this thread is that the differences in religion and non-religion may be more cultural than inherent in religion itself.


I think that in fairness to Feynman you really ought to look up and cite precisely what he said .

I can recall reading exchanges between him and a would-be compiler of a book on eminent Jewish scientists where he refused to be included in this laudatory compendium on the sensible grounds that if he took part in positive racial-based categorizing of Jews, that would give countenance to negative racial categorizing of Jews. It made sense to me when I read it, and still does.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Chap
_Emeritus
Posts: 14190
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Re: science and reliion again but a new twist

Post by _Chap »

CaliforniaKid wrote:
Chap wrote:Those people probably had the good sense to realize (six days out of seven) that the canidae representatives did a lot more good to them and their families than the non-stick-fetching non-intruder-deterring non-useful-while-hunting entity designated by an anagram of their common name.

LOL! I'm continually reminded how smart and clever my e-friends are. Good on you, Chap!


Hey! Can you give us a link to the board they mainly post on? But I suppose it will be one of those invitation only affairs.

<sigh>
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_asbestosman
_Emeritus
Posts: 6215
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:32 pm

Re: science and reliion again but a new twist

Post by _asbestosman »

Chap wrote:I think that in fairness to Feynman you really ought to look up and cite precisely what he said .

I can recall reading exchanges between him and a would-be compiler of a book on eminent Jewish scientists where he refused to be included in this laudatory compendium on the sensible grounds that if he took part in positive racial-based categorizing of Jews, that would give countenance to negative racial categorizing of Jews. It made sense to me when I read it, and still does.



Something else happened at that time which is worth mentioning here. One of the questions the rabbinical students and I discussed at some length was why it is that in academic things, such as theoretical physics, there is a higher proportion of Jewish kids than their proportion in the general population. The rabbinical students thought the reason was that the Jews have a history of respecting learning: They respect their rabbis, who are really teachers, and they respect education. The Jews pass on this tradition in their families all the time, so that if a boy is a good student, it's as good as, if not better than, being a good football player.

It was the same afternoon that I was reminded how true it is. I was invited to one of the rabbinical students' home, and he introduced me to his mother, who had just come back from Washin gton, D.C. She clapped her hands together, in ecstasy, and said, "Oh! My day is complete. Today I met a general, and a professor!"

I realized that there are not many people who think it's just as important, and just as nice, to meet a professor as to meet a general. So I guess there's something in what they said.


From Surely You're Joking Mr. Feyman in the section "Is Electricity Fire" towards the end--just before "Judging Books by Their Covers".
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy.
eritis sicut dii
I support NCMO
_Morley
_Emeritus
Posts: 3542
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:19 pm

Re: science and reliion again but a new twist

Post by _Morley »

asbestosman wrote:
Chap wrote:I think that in fairness to Feynman you really ought to look up and cite precisely what he said .

I can recall reading exchanges between him and a would-be compiler of a book on eminent Jewish scientists where he refused to be included in this laudatory compendium on the sensible grounds that if he took part in positive racial-based categorizing of Jews, that would give countenance to negative racial categorizing of Jews. It made sense to me when I read it, and still does.



Something else happened at that time which is worth mentioning here. One of the questions the rabbinical students and I discussed at some length was why it is that in academic things, such as theoretical physics, there is a higher proportion of Jewish kids than their proportion in the general population. The rabbinical students thought the reason was that the Jews have a history of respecting learning: They respect their rabbis, who are really teachers, and they respect education. The Jews pass on this tradition in their families all the time, so that if a boy is a good student, it's as good as, if not better than, being a good football player.

It was the same afternoon that I was reminded how true it is. I was invited to one of the rabbinical students' home, and he introduced me to his mother, who had just come back from Washin gton, D.C. She clapped her hands together, in ecstasy, and said, "Oh! My day is complete. Today I met a general, and a professor!"

I realized that there are not many people who think it's just as important, and just as nice, to meet a professor as to meet a general. So I guess there's something in what they said.


From Surely You're Joking Mr. Feyman in the section "Is Electricity Fire" towards the end--just before "Judging Books by Their Covers".
My underlining.

Thank you, Abman. That makes more sense and is much closer to the quote as I remembered it.
_Chap
_Emeritus
Posts: 14190
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Re: science and reliion again but a new twist

Post by _Chap »

asbestosman wrote:
Chap wrote:I think that in fairness to Feynman you really ought to look up and cite precisely what he said .

I can recall reading exchanges between him and a would-be compiler of a book on eminent Jewish scientists where he refused to be included in this laudatory compendium on the sensible grounds that if he took part in positive racial-based categorizing of Jews, that would give countenance to negative racial categorizing of Jews. It made sense to me when I read it, and still does.



Something else happened at that time which is worth mentioning here. One of the questions the rabbinical students and I discussed at some length was why it is that in academic things, such as theoretical physics, there is a higher proportion of Jewish kids than their proportion in the general population. The rabbinical students thought the reason was that the Jews have a history of respecting learning: They respect their rabbis, who are really teachers, and they respect education. The Jews pass on this tradition in their families all the time, so that if a boy is a good student, it's as good as, if not better than, being a good football player.

It was the same afternoon that I was reminded how true it is. I was invited to one of the rabbinical students' home, and he introduced me to his mother, who had just come back from Washin gton, D.C. She clapped her hands together, in ecstasy, and said, "Oh! My day is complete. Today I met a general, and a professor!"

I realized that there are not many people who think it's just as important, and just as nice, to meet a professor as to meet a general. So I guess there's something in what they said.


From Surely You're Joking Mr. Feyman in the section "Is Electricity Fire" towards the end--just before "Judging Books by Their Covers".


Thanks! That sounds like Feynman. He quotes what the rabbinical students said, and manages to poke gentle fun at it at the same time as saying 'there's something in what they said'.

The bit I referred to will be found in his letters collection "Perfectly Reasonable Deviations From the Beaten Track" , on page 234-5, where he says, in a text too long to retype here (but readable through a search for the book on the Amazon website):

The error of pro-Semitism is not that the Jewish people or Jewish heritage is not really good, but rather the error is that intelligence, goodwill and kindness is not, thank God, a monopoly of the Jewish people, but a universal characteristic of mankind in general
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_EAllusion
_Emeritus
Posts: 18519
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:39 pm

Re: science and reliion again but a new twist

Post by _EAllusion »

Chris -

There's decent evidence that all children tend to heavily rely on teleological explanations for natural phenomena. Why does does the river flow that way? Because it wants to go down hill. But an interesting thing occurs around early pre-adolescence. Those more exposed to scientific explanations for natural phenomena are more likely to lose this tendency going into adulthood while those who aren't tend to retain it. It is very easy to see how this promiscuous teleological reasoning can lead one to explain the world in terms of hidden cosmic minds, which in turn biases belief in gods. And if science education reduces this tendency - and it does - it is also easy to see how that might explain some of the relationship between science education and religiosity.

____________________

Here's an old blog post from the great, but now defunct Mixing memory:

Friday, January 07, 2005

Intelligent Design Inferences in Children

Because religious cognition utilizes ordinary cognitive mechanisms, research in virtually every area of cognitive psychology and neuroscience may have implications for the study of religion. It would be difficult, then, to attempt to blog about all of the interesting findings that relate to the study of religion in cognitive science. Since the areas that are most closely related to my own study are those that concern religious concepts (e.g., God concepts) and memory for religious information, most of what I post on the topic will likely come from those areas. However, I want to touch on some other interesting lines of research as well. So, in this post, I'm going to talk about some interesting research being done on young children's tendency to ascribe teleological explanations to natural phenomena, including those for which adults would typically provide natural, non-teleological explanations (e.g., the shapes of rock formations).

Recent research has led to the Promiscuous Teleology theory1, which argues that children tend provide teleological explanations for a broader range of instances than adults, from artificacts, to biological kinds and natural, non-biological kinds such as rock formations and whether phenomena. This tendency results from a further tendency to give purposeful explanations when other types of causal explanations are not obvious, as well as a hair-triggered intentional reasoning mechanism. Researchers have shown that up until about 10 years, an age at which most U.S. children will have received a sufficient amount of science education to provide non-teleological explanations for non-biological natural phenomena, children give teleological explanations for these sorts of phenomena2. When asked what the "function," if there is one, of various properties of the properties of artificats, biological kinds, and non-biological natural kinds, U.S. children younger than ten will readily provide a functional explanation, and prefer functional to physical explanations when given a choice3. Children who are told stories about the origins of natural kinds (biological or non-biological), and later asked to recall those stories, often "reconstruct" them in order to make them fit more teleological explanations (see here). British children have also been shown to have this tendency, though it is not as strong in them as it is in U.S. children, a fact likely due to the differences in religiosity between the the U.S. and the U.K. Children in the United States are more likely to be exposed to design explanations for natural phenomena at an early age than British children are.

If children have a natural tendency to give teleological explanations for natural phenomena, they may also believe that such phenomena were intentionally created by an intelligent designer. And, in fact, U.S. children between the ages of 5 and 11, from both highly religious and non-religious households, will, if given the choice, answer that biological entities were created by God. Only after 11 do the tendencies to believe that God created animals begin to diverge for these two groups4.

In one study5, British children between the ages f 5 and 10 were presented with pictures of items of different kinds6, and asked a series of questions about their origins. The first question was open ended ("Why did the first ever X exist?”). After this question had been asked for each item, the children were asked a second question about each one. This question presented them with a choice between a physical or teleological causal explanation for the origin of the item. Finally, children were asked a design question about each item (e.g., "Did someone or something make the first ever mountain exist or did it just happen?”).

In answer to the first question, children throughout the age group tended to provide a purpose as the explanation for the origins of each type of objects, whether they were artifacts, biological kinds, or non-biological natural kinds. When they attributed the origins of an item to a causal agent, they were likely to attribute it to a human rather than supernatural agent, for all item types. In answering the second question, children tended to provide functional explanations for each item-type, though for objects about which they may have known the physical causes (e.g., mountains), they were less likely to do so. Older children were also less likely to give functional explanations than younger children. Finally, for the third question, about intelligent design, children were likely to attribute the origns of each item type to an intelligent designer, though this tendency was stronger for artifacts than biological kinds, and biological kinds for non-biological natural kinds. Younger children were also more likely to attribute design than older children, and these British children were slightly less likely to attribute design to natural kinds (biological and non-biological) than American children.

Thus, this study again demonstrates children's tendency to produce teleological explanations for artifacts and natural kinds, though this tendency can be mitigated by knowledge of physical origins, as indicated by its decrease in older children, particularly for objects about which they had knowledge of physical origins. It also indicates that children tend to believe that both artifacts and natural kinds were designed by intelligent agents. This tendency was strongest when children spontaneously produced teleological answers to the first, open-ended question (correlations around .8), indicating that when children assign a purpose to something, they also tend to believe that the purpose was the result of intention. Also, as in the previous studies on teleological explanations, British children (who had various religious backgrounds, including Christian, Muslim, Hindu, and non-religious) perceived design slightly less often than U.S. children, a fact likely due to the higher level of religiosity in the United States.

These studies may provide insight into recent surveys showing that about 50% of American adults believe in some form of creationism, and another 20-25% lean that way. There are all sorts of intervening factors between childhood and adulthood that may influence these beliefs, such as increased levels of religious education and indoctrionation, and the high level of religiosity in the United States is certainly a factor. However, the studies demonstrating that children attribute teleological explanations to both artifiacts and natural kinds also show that these explanations are diminished as children get older and gain more scientific knowledge. For instance, in the study on beliefs in intelligent design, children were much more likely to choose functional explanations for the origins of rivers than mountains, when they were given the choice between a functional and physical explanation. The authors attributed this to children's knowledge of volcanoes, and the relationship between mountains and volcanoes. Children did not have similar knowledge of the physical origins of rivers, and therefore, when under uncertainty, were likely to make teleological inferences. Since design inferences seem to be closely related to teleological inferences in children, and teleological inferences are affected by science education, one explanation for the high incidence of design inferences in American adults may be a lack of quality science education. It may be that by adulthood, further scientific knowledge no longer affects firmly-entrenched beliefs in design, as it might have in childhood.

1 Kelemen, D. (1999a). The scope of teleological thinking in preschool children. Cognition, 70, 241-272. 36
36. Kelemen, D. (1999b). Beliefs about purpose: On the origins of teleological thought. In M.
Corballis, & S. Lea (Eds.), The descent of mind: Psychological perspectives on hominid
evolution (pp. 278-294). Oxford: Oxford University Press.
2 Kellemen (1999a).
3 Kelemen, D. (1999c). Why are rocks pointy? Children’s preference for teleological explanations of the natural world. Developmental Psychology, 35, 1440-1453.
4 Evans, E. M. (2001). Cognitive and contextual factors in the emergence of diverse belief systems: Creation versus evolution. Cognitive Psychology, 42, 217-266.
5 Kelemen, D., & DiYanni, C. (In Press). Intuitions about origins: Purpose and intelligent design in children's reasoning about nature. Journal of Cognition and Development.
6 The objects were the following, always given in this order (with the artifacts last): thunderstorm, bird, river, monkey, mountain, flood, boat, hat.
_DrW
_Emeritus
Posts: 7222
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:57 am

Re: science and reliion again but a new twist

Post by _DrW »

EAllusion,

Thank you for a very informative post and especially for the supporting references.

Great stuff.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_karl61
_Emeritus
Posts: 2983
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:29 pm

Re: science and reliion again but a new twist

Post by _karl61 »

I always wondered what I could do if I devoted all the time I spent in an LDS building into a technical vocation or subject.
I want to fly!
_DrW
_Emeritus
Posts: 7222
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:57 am

Re: science and reliion again but a new twist

Post by _DrW »

karl61 wrote:I always wondered what I could do if I devoted all the time I spent in an LDS building into a technical vocation or subject.

Well, considering that you want to fly, you could have certainly earned your pilot's license and logged a lot of flight time as well. (Just think of the adventures you could have had with that tithing money.)

That's what we did with a lot of our Sundays before the kids came along. My wife and I bought a used plane, put a new instrument package in it, and leased it back to a flight school as an instrument trainer. When we finally sold it (for not much less than we had paid for it) she could fly and I had a commercial pilot's license with multi-engine and instrument ratings.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
Post Reply