Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_Morley
_Emeritus
Posts: 3542
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:19 pm

Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Morley »

Darth J wrote:Has anyone so far found a substantive distinction between what Droopy says the United Order is and Droopy's understanding of communism other than his preference to be ruled by priesthood leaders instead of a secular government?

Nope. But I earnestly plead with him to show the difference. I'm willing to be schooled.
_Melchett
_Emeritus
Posts: 173
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:05 pm

Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Melchett »

Morley wrote:Nope. But I earnestly plead with him to show the difference. I'm willing to be schooled.


It's a shame Droopy isn't.
_Morley
_Emeritus
Posts: 3542
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:19 pm

Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Morley »

Darth J wrote:
Droopy wrote: Marx' system involves the utter destruction of economic, social, and political freedom as a precondition of the achievement of the actual state of affairs sought in socialist theory, which is not care of the poor, per se, but equality of economic condition across an entire society,


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Order

Smith was troubled because of the number of members joining the church in poverty in Kirtland, Ohio. Revenue was needed for the church to publish books and tracts. At this time, Smith and Rigdon were both in economic distress. Smith and his wife Emma lived on the Morley farm for a period of time.

On February 4, 1831, Smith said he had received a revelation calling Edward Partridge to be the first bishop of the church. Five days later, on February 9. 1831, Smith described a second revelation detailing the Law of Consecration.


Oh goody. We're gonna soon come to part of the story where God instructs Joseph to tell Morley to sell his farm and give all the money to Joseph....

(I do so love this story.)
Last edited by Guest on Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Darth J
_Emeritus
Posts: 13392
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:16 am

Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Darth J »

Droopy wrote: Marx' system involves the utter destruction of economic, social, and political freedom as a precondition of the achievement of the actual state of affairs sought in socialist theory,


Acts 5

1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, asold a possession,

2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles’ feet.

3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto bGod.

5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.

8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.

9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to atempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
_Droopy
_Emeritus
Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Droopy »

You are intermingling political ideology with law (the Constitution), and you never fail to do so.


Let me get this straight: political ideology has nothing to do with law.

I see. Interesting assertion.

And I am quite sure that your ideas about what "the gospel of Jesus Christ" entails is 100% irrelevant to the powers of Congress enumerated in Article I of of the Constitution.


And I'm quite sure that you don't have anything near the knowledge of the doctrines of the church relative to this to state with any degree of clarity what the relationship is, from a church standpoint.

If it something is within the purview of Article I, it is, by definition, constitutional. Your disagreeing with any given program because you don't like it is not a constitutional issue, but a political one.


Good. You have just obviated the entire New Deal, Great Society, universal health care, and probably 80% of the modern administrative state. I welcome you among the few and proud standing athwart history yelling "Stop!"

By the way, I am not interested in hearing your hilariously uninformed opinions about how "the Socratic method is the courtroom," or how torts are implicitly bad (when you have no demonstrated understanding of what a tort is), as a rejoinder to your failure to be able to tell the difference between a legal question and a political one.


I've never said there are not differences between legal and political questions. It is also the case that many, if not most, political questions eventually devolve into legal ones. What I have pointed out, for a long time, is that the method of argumentation you bring to the marketplace of ideas is grounded heavily in the kind of highly truncated, process oriented argument you are used to in the courtroom, a form of argument that serves the courtroom well on some occasions, and not so well in others, but, on its own, is well out of its element and over its own head in the non-courtroom philosophical realm.

It is not particularly impressive to see your verbosity about the what you think the Framers intended when, true to your Skousenite talking points, you think that case law is a perversion of the Constitution, despite the fact that the Constitution presupposes that the United States is a common law country.


1. I've never read a word of Skousen on political issues, and have no idea what he thinks about them.

2. Where do I claim that case law is a "perversion of the constitution"? Here's what I actually said:

Darth is interested only, as I've always suspected, only in case law; only in what "the courts" have said and the precedents that have been set, not in the original intent of the Constitution, and not with philosophical rigor. Legal, Socratic reasoning is not the same thing as philosophical reasoning or a philosophical temperament.


What I have clearly said, and what a number of the best minds in political philosophy of the late 20th century have said, is not that "case law" is a perversion of the constitution, but that people like Darth, who use the edifice of case law built up over time to incrementally alter the meaning of the constitution and circumvent its actual text and original intent, are perverters of the constitution (we could well take Cass Sunstien as a textbook example of the type). The problem is not the constitution or the concept of case law per se, but legal Morlocks like Darth, whether they be leftists or extreme libertarian secularists.

How about if we start with your idea that art is only protected speech if it is political?

http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/vie ... 8&p=344138


I went to the page, but I don't see the claim that you ascribed to me. However, it is true as a matter of constitutional history that the first amendment has, as its fundamental purpose, the protection of political ideas, and most especially, ideas to which the majority is hostile. Nowhere have I claimed that art is only protected speech unless it is political. In fact, I doubt I would have ever made such a claim, especially within the context of child pornography, which was the subject of the post to which you linked, as I've long been clear that pornography qua pornography is not speech. It is not protected free speech because it is not speech, but pure vicarious ideation.

Speech, for or against pornography, whether political or philosophical in nature, certainly is protected.

And that's why Harry Reid cannot possibly be a good Mormon.


Interesting that you defend the very person who said publicly that "I am a Democrat because I am a Mormon," implying explicitly that Republicans and, perhaps, other non-Democrats (such as Austrian libertarians etc.) cannot be good Mormons (or Christians).

Reid's problem is that the party he supports and its core ideology are thoroughly hostile and inconsistent with the teachings of the Church. But brother Reid is in no sense incapable of the kind of double think and delusional hypocrisy typical of the rank and file of his party within institutional politics. Witness the following remark by Boyd Peterson:

Finally, I am a Democrat because I believe LDS scripture and prophets have urged us to live within our means, to be fiscally responsible.


Do not have your mouth full of food when reading that quote.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Darth J
_Emeritus
Posts: 13392
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:16 am

Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Darth J »

Morley wrote:
Oh goody. We're gonna soon come to part of the story where God instructs Joseph to tell Morley to sell his farm and give all the money to Joseph....

(I do so love this story.)


But sometimes the Lord was a capitalist, too. Like when the Lord became a stockbroker and commanded certain of His followers to buy stock to build a nice house for Joseph Smith to live in. This revelation was, of course, received through Joseph Smith.

D&C 124:56-83

Yes, whether the Lord is going with socialism or capitalism, one thing we can count on is that His commandments and instructions will materially benefit Joseph Smith.
_Droopy
_Emeritus
Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Droopy »

However, Melchett is mistaken to relate his own experiences with his country's health care system.


He may not be. What he is woefully mistaken about is the nature of the system itself and its overall impact on the quality and availability of care for the broad mass of the population.

He also appears to believe that health care in Britain is "free," which is indicative of a degree of economic illiteracy and general intellectual slovenliness historically standard on this message board.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Analytics
_Emeritus
Posts: 4231
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:24 pm

Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Analytics »

Droopy wrote:To anyone who actually understands both Marxist doctrine and gospel doctrine, the glaring philosophical mistake Analytics continues to make here is more than obvious....


The only thing I did was quote some verses about the United Order, and quote Karl Marx. That is all I did. In what way is it a "glaring philisophical mistake" to quote the D&C, Marion Romney, and Karl Marx?
Last edited by Anonymous on Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.

-Yuval Noah Harari
_Morley
_Emeritus
Posts: 3542
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:19 pm

Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Morley »

Darth J wrote:
Morley wrote:
Oh goody. We're gonna soon come to part of the story where God instructs Joseph to tell Morley to sell his farm and give all the money to Joseph....

(I do so love this story.)


But sometimes the Lord was a capitalist, too. Like when the Lord became a stockbroker and commanded certain of His followers to buy stock to build a nice house for Joseph Smith to live in. This revelation was, of course, received through Joseph Smith.

D&C 124:56-83

Yes, whether the Lord is going with socialism or capitalism, one thing we can count on is that His commandments and instructions will materially benefit Joseph Smith.

Well, it is the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
_Droopy
_Emeritus
Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Droopy »

Analytics wrote:Communism is an economic system conceived with Utopian ideals with the objective of creating a wealthy society where everybody contributes and everybody shares fairly in the wealth. Every attempt to implement Communism has been a colossal failure.


Correct, but I'm not sure you understand why it has been a failure.

In contrast, the United Order is an economic system conceived with Utopian ideals with the objective of creating a wealthy society where everybody contributes and everybody shares fairly in the wealth. Every attempt to implement the United Order has been a colossal failure.


False on several counts. First, the fundamental purpose of the UO is to prepare a people for the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. The UO, as President Ezra Benson said, is not an economic experiment, but a "celestial law." Its economic dynamics are only one facet, or aspect of the entire social order.

Its core economic aspect, in regard to welfare, is not to ensure an "equal" distribution of wealth or to see that "everybody shares fairly in the wealth", but to abolish poverty. Egalitarian leveling has no necessary relation to this goal, and modern revelation has thus far made no mention of such a purpose. The fundamental purpose of the UO is the spiritual development and purification of the Saints in preparation for the Second Coming, and the fixation upon economic leveling, so beloved of some in the church with other ideological axes to grind, is not present in either the UO or the principles governing the present church welfare system.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
Post Reply