Book of Mormon translation as per LDS manuals

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_Chap
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Re: Book of Mormon translation as per LDS manuals

Post by _Chap »

Equality wrote:Isn't there also a problem with the phrase "Urim and Thummim" meaning different things to different people at different times? I believe the phrase was used not only to refer to the "spectacles" that were allegedly recovered from the stone box along with the plates and breastplate but also was used to refer to the peepstones that Joseph Smith used on various occasions. I think a lot of the confusion comes from the early sources' indiscriminate use of the term Urim and Thummim. Seems to me I read an article about that somewhere but I can't for the life of me remember where.


See the Dialogue article mentioned above for a not unconvincing point of view on this.
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Re: Book of Mormon translation as per LDS manuals

Post by _mikuu »

why me wrote:This thread is deja vu for me from the MDD.


Sorry Why Me, but they kicked me out of there. I am not sure why.
_thews
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Re: Book of Mormon translation as per LDS manuals

Post by _thews »

Here you go:
http://www.boap.org/LDS/History/HTMLHis ... html#N_13_

Note the dates in the title...
History of the Church Vol.1

Chapter 3. [Jan. 1827 - Mar. 1829]

The Nephite Record Delivered To Joseph-- The Angel's Warning--The Work of Translation.


Followed by this (note footnote 13)...
1. Now, behold, I say unto you, that because you delivered up those writings which you had power given unto you to translate by the means of the Urim and Thummim,(13) into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them.

2. And you also lost your gift at the same time, and your mind became darkened.

3. Nevertheless, it is now restored unto you again; therefore see that you are faithful and continue on unto the finishing of the remainder of the work of translation as you have begun.


Footnote 13...
13. The term Urim and Thummim, while used in this revelation and in the ms text does not appear in early publications of the revelation, nor does it seem to have been used in any contemporary document of the principals. No early ms of this revelation survives apparently. In the 1833 Book of Commandments, verse one read "Now, behold I say unto you, that because you delivered up so many writings, which you had power to translate, into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them. . . ." Thus, the words "by the means of the Urim and Thummim" in verse one were not part of this verse in the Book of Commandments; nor was section 17, which also makes use of the term Urim and Thummim, printed in the Book of Commandments. Both section 17 and verse one of section 10, as we now have them, first appeared in the 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants. Lyndon Cook writes:

While the retroactive placement of the term in section 10 has led to some speculation relative to the Prophet's having the instrument in his possession, a preponderance of evidence confirms the Prophet's own testimony: "With the records was found a curious instrument, which the ancients called 'Urim and Thummim,' which consisted of two transparent stones set in the rim of a bow fastened to a breastplate" (History of the Church, 4:537 [Wentworth letter]). The problem here seems to be one of terminology, not whether or not the Prophet had possession of an ancient artifact. Until some time after the translation of the Book of Mormon, the sacred instruments may have been referred to as "Interpreters," or "spectacles." It is possible that Joseph Smith's inspired translation of the Bible played some part in designating the translating instrument "Urim and Thummim." The earliest use of the term Urim and Thummim in Mormon literature is in the Evening and Morning Star (January 1833). An article on the Book of Mormon, undoubtedly authored by W. W. Phelps, stated, "It was translated by the gift and power of God, by an unlearned man, through the aid of a pair of Interpreters, or spectacles--(known, perhaps in ancient days as Teraphim, or Urim and Thummim)." [RJS, 17]

[Phelps' speculation that the Old Testament word "Teraphim" refers to an object or objects similar to the Urim and Thummim is wrong. Teraphim were small household idols. Recent studies in regard to Biblical "Urim and Thummim," historically the object of wide speculation, suggest they were similar in character to the "Interpreters" had by Joseph Smith. See notes in JSCOM.]


I wonder what "preponderance of evidence" they're alluding to, to make 1833 fit under the title of 1829? Hey I know... how about an outright lie?
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_Drifting
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Re: Book of Mormon translation as per LDS manuals

Post by _Drifting »

Interestingly, along with the non explanation of Joseph really translated the plates, the Church seems reluctant to explain just what exactly was the 'gift' that Oliver had, refered to in the D&C...
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_thews
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Re: Book of Mormon translation as per LDS manuals

Post by _thews »

This is the actual page of how it was originally (1829) written in the Book of Commandments...
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_YaFmOpBEBtY/R ... 33-p22.gif
Image
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths
_mikuu
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Re: Book of Mormon translation as per LDS manuals

Post by _mikuu »

thews wrote:This is the actual page of how it was originally (1829) written in the Book of Commandments...
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_YaFmOpBEBtY/R ... 33-p22.gif
Image

Thanks Thews.
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Re: Book of Mormon translation as per LDS manuals

Post by _LDS truthseeker »

Equality wrote:Isn't there also a problem with the phrase "Urim and Thummim" meaning different things to different people at different times? I believe the phrase was used not only to refer to the "spectacles" that were allegedly recovered from the stone box along with the plates and breastplate but also was used to refer to the peepstones that Joseph Smith used on various occasions. I think a lot of the confusion comes from the early sources' indiscriminate use of the term Urim and Thummim. Seems to me I read an article about that somewhere but I can't for the life of me remember where.


B.H. Roberts explains the difference between the seer stone and the translating device found in the stone box:

"The sum of the whole matter, then, concerning the manner of translating the sacred record of the Nephites, according to the testimony of the only witnesses competent to testify in the matter is: With the Nephite record was deposited a curious instrument, consisting of two transparent stones, set in the rim of a bow, somewhat resembling spectacles, but larger, called by the ancient Hebrews 'Urim and Thummim,' but by the Nephites 'Interpreters.' In addition to these 'Interpreters' the Prophet Joseph had a 'Seer Stone,' possessed of similar qualities to the Urim and Thummim; that the prophet sometimes used one and sometimes the other of these sacred instruments in the work of translation; that whether the 'Interpreters' or the 'Seer Stone' was used the Nephite characters with the English interpretation appeared in the sacred instrument; that the Prophet would pronounce the English translation to his scribe, which when correctly written would disappear and the other characters with their interpretation take their place, and so on until the work was completed" (B.H. Roberts, The Seventy's Course in Theology, First Year, p.111).

http://www.mormonthink.com/transbomweb. ... texactlyis
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Re: Book of Mormon translation as per LDS manuals

Post by _LDS truthseeker »

Chap wrote:[One striking quotation that I have never seen before in this connection (op. cit p. 51) comes from Oliver Cowdery in 1838:

I have sometimes had seasons of skepticism, in which I did seriously wonder whether the Prophet and I were men in our sober senses, when he would be translating from plates, through 'the Urim and Thummim', and the plates not be in sight at all.


I once asked Grant Palmer about this. He said that he researched this quite thoroughly and could not find any evidence that Oliver said that. He said It may have been said by one of the Whitmers, but not by Oliver. 
_mikuu
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Re: Book of Mormon translation as per LDS manuals

Post by _mikuu »

I know that apologists can explain away art when it is not accurate but look at the josephsmith.net website. It isn't the art that is misleading it is the way it is presented. I am sure they could have produced something that wasn't misleading. The website has 4 pictures and a video giving the impression that he was reading from the plates.

http://josephsmith.net/josephsmith/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=0bda0fbab57f0010VgnVCM1000001f5e340aRCRD&vgnextfmt=tab3

Although, he is holding something in his hand, maybe a seer stone, in the first picture and he is only copying some characters in another.
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Re: Book of Mormon translation as per LDS manuals

Post by _Fence Sitter »

There is actually one instance where we know he was looking at the plates.

http://fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Translation/Anthon_transcript
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