Blacks weren't allowed to pray in church

[_canpakes]

A "curse" isn't necessarily a bad thing like you believe. In fact, I seem to recall even some LDS statements on that subject, that the curse was actually for THEIR protection and the purposes of God, not because they were "evil" or some dumb thing in pre-mortality. The first shall be last and the last shall be first. There is a blessing here in the will of God, a love for his children that you are completely ignorant of. You lacking the intellect and the spirit to understand, simply can't understand why a black man would love this Church and Gospel, even with some imperfect past, while you wallow in your sin and arrogance toward Righteousness and Light in the world.

This is very interesting. Why would God 'protect' an entire race of individuals by preventing them from attaining the same status as another race that may have very well been oppressing them?

Heck, even the Jews were led out of Israel and given real estate. Now you have me wondering what sort of wonderful opportunities that the 'curse' will have for blacks.

[_ldsfaqs]

Ray---

When I was a believing Latter-day Saint, did I have the right to tell people what I think about the Church?

Now that I am a not-believing Latter-day Saint, do I have the right to tell people what I think about the Church?

Let me tell you a little secret about life.....

When you were a Mormon did you go around saying the Catholic Church was a cult, that they practiced cannibalism? Did you go around saying that Protestant Churches were blah blah blah?

Or, as a Mormon, did you simply share your positive and cherished beliefs about YOUR FAITH?
Sure you may have thrown in the momentary thought about whatever religion, but you focused on YOUR FAITH. You didn't focus on someone else's religion or beliefs.

Where you go wrong, is you need to focus on what you believe, not what you don't believe anymore. It is a defective human being that focuses primarily or even secondarily on things he no longer believes in. Move on....

When I left the Church and became anti-mormon, I didn't remain one for very long. Because unlike you, I actually realized that if I continued to be dogmatic about what I didn't believe, then I would close off my mind. I realized that if I belittled the very things in this world that LIFT mankind better than anything else, that I would be in fact serving evil, whatever that evil was, I would be serving it. Those two things combined, and I seal my fated the the damned and the ignorant. So, I let go of my anti-mormonism and anti-religion views, and just lived my life. Because I was always interested in the truth, the time eventually came in which I started really studying again, but this time without judgment, just doing my part, making sure it was objective and deeply thorough, and THAT is when everything started making sense, and I came right back to Mormonism. I then studied the issues I had, and the truth was shown to me on those also. And then, came the knowledge in intellect and spirit, that the Church WAS literally the Lords Church again on the earth.

See, I didn't put my faith in my own intellect, I put my faith in the process, and if there was a God, in him. I believed his promise, that he would show all, and he did, and did it much quicker than I expected. As an atheist/agnostic, you/we think there is so much out there, that we can't really know anything. But it's a lie, God's promise is the actual truth. If we buckle down and do our part, the truth does come.

Anyway, sorry for the testimony, but I've been where you are.

[_Darth J]

Assuming the LDS Church is the successor church to the one Joseph Smith started, the Church has existed for 181 years. For 148 of those years, it taught substantive doctrine that black people are inferior to not just white people, but to everyone.

That is a "rare instance," is it?

That is simply a false statement..... It did not at all teach a doctrine that blacks were "inferior".

Every other race of people on Earth can be ordained to have the authority to act on behalf of Jesus Christ, except you guys. You guys cannot have it, because you are cursed.

I'll tell you what, Ldsfaqs. Let's make it so that the government will recognize marriages performed by ministers of all other religions, but not by Latter-day Saints.

Doing so will in no way make Mormons inferior. Right?

That is your drive-by anti-mormon glasses speaking, not the actual truth about the religion and it's people. Again, some statements cherry-picked from history by some individuals does not a racist religion or entire people make.

Okay. Pick me some pre-1978 statements that said that blacks are just as entitled to hold the priesthood, and are not cursed by God to have been born in that lineage.

I bet there are tons of them!

Not to get all Godwin's law on you here, but did you know that some people cherry-pick certain statements of the Third Reich to make it seem as if they didn't like Jewish people?

As a faithful Mormon, you should be upset when the Third Reich is made to appear racist, given the Church's practice of being Nazi sympathizers.

Do you think your the FIRST person to think this way about the Church?
I was just as stupid as you once, but I was so very wrong. So willing to believe the worst about the Church, instead of opening my actual eyes right in front of me, and studying the issue in greater depth. Only when I stopped looking at things like a child, one who sees quotes and then says "bad Mormonism", THEN I finally knew what the Church was actually like. Further, we I actually read MORE of it's history, in full, THEN I saw the whole truth, contrary to your using a little truth to tell great lies.

Then it should be quite easy for you to share these abundant actual facts with the rest of the class, right? Maybe you should do that now, instead of continuing merely to assert the existence of this rest of the story.

Mormons and Mormonism despite some of it's human flaws, was ALWAYS against racism and slavery.

I am sure that you believe, contrary to irrefutable fact, that this is so.

Say, not to change the subject, but did you know that in the Compromise of 1850, Utah remained a slave territory? Did you also know that the Mormon pioneers who came to Utah had Negro slaves?

http://books.google.com/books?id=FCclwn ... es&f=false

And for people who rely on things like recorded history for their understanding of things that happened, they will find that in fact, Mormons were at best ambivalent about Negro slavery.

http://historytogo.utah.gov/utah_chapte ... nutah.html

Believe me, if the Church was actually racist, after I restudied things properly and objectively like I should have done before, rather than prejudging the Church like you do, I wouldn't have re-converted to the Church.

See, the thing is that when you have a lifetime of experience in the Church, and are relying on history books instead of emotional rants for your information, you are not "prejudging" the Church.

If they were racists, if Joseph actually was a pervert like I stupidly believed like you stupidly believe because of quote mining,

You are welcome to provide the quotes that you feel are taken out of context and put them in their proper setting.

I wouldn't have re-joined, and stayed faithful these last 20 years, years most of which I've dealth with idiots like you the entire time. I've seen and know your claims a million times over. Sorry, but they aren't the truth.

Amazing what you can do with "Nuh-uh!!!" these days, isn't it?

You know, this thread has been full of documented fact, and your response is invariably that the words in front of someone's face are not there. You incessantly assert that this truth about the matter exists, but you also incessantly fail to demonstrate it.

Maybe you would be more persuasive if you provided some evidence of some kind to refute what is right here for everyone to see.

[_Darth J]

Problem with your judgment is that it could be said to "be a curse" to be born in a place poor, to never know God or good, etc. etc..... because of our pre-mortality. But anyone that knows the Gospel, which you don't, knows that God has a plan for those born under such a so-called 'curse'......

A "curse" isn't necessarily a bad thing like you believe. In fact, I seem to recall even some LDS statements on that subject, that the curse was actually for THEIR protection and the purposes of God, not because they were "evil" or some dumb thing in pre-mortality. The first shall be last and the last shall be first. There is a blessing here in the will of God, a love for his children that you are completely ignorant of. You lacking the intellect and the spirit to understand, simply can't understand why a black man would love this Church and Gospel, even with some imperfect past, while you wallow in your sin and arrogance toward Righteousness and Light in the world.

Mark E. Petersen himself could not have said it better.

[_Melchett]

Since the questions I put to Mr Agostini are not being answered by him, I must ask for an answer from someone.

[_ldsfaqs]

Just one race, Black Africans, weren't. Isn't it racism to exclude one race?

Stop trying to move the goal posts..... You know very well that racism of the black man refers to him being "black", not because he is a particular kind of black.

And again, the Boy Scouts only being for boys, and the Girl Scouts only being for boys, or Gay Clubs being only for Gays, etc. etc. has nothing to do with race, sex or otherwise. It is simply is or was the current policy.

God has his purposes, just as he had his purposes of denying ALL Tribes (races), save one, from the Priesthood in ancient times. God had his purposes when he told Christ to ignore the Gentiles, and take the Gospel to the Jews. Christ wasn't a racist, you would you claim he was. Not only that, but Christ nor anywhere in the Bible is Slavery even condemned. In fact, Christ and others told folks how to treat their slaves. Clearly, God works with man, not the other way around. Thus, God working with man in our day to deny the African the priesthood is nothing new.

[_Darth J]

Ray---

When I was a believing Latter-day Saint, did I have the right to tell people what I think about the Church?

Now that I am a not-believing Latter-day Saint, do I have the right to tell people what I think about the Church?

Do it at your own peril. I'm telling you again, I have been down this path.

Learn to be more accepting and tolerant, and don't believe you know everything.

I wonder what the factual basis would be for inferring that I do believe I know everything.

One of the beautiful things about the Church is that it takes only simple, childlike faith to know that it is true, but godlike omniscience to determine that it is not.

There's a place for everyone. You criticise the Church for creating divisions, yet that's exactly what you're doing.

No, I criticize the Church for being a venal corporate bureaucracy. I criticize the teachings of the Church for being a fairytale.

It's your way, or the highway. How are you different?

What is "my way," Ray? Don't make it up, don't assume, don't argue your own prejudices. Copy and paste what "my way" supposedly is.

[_RayAgostini]

One of the beautiful things about the Church is that it takes only simple, childlike faith to know that it is true, but godlike omniscience to determine that it is not.

You'll learn - the hard way.

[_ldsfaqs]

Some positive....

• “Black Pete” was baptizing as early as 1830 or 1831.
• Joseph T Ball – was baptized in the summer of 1832 by either Brigham Young or his brother Joseph Young who served a mission to Boston. Ball later went on mission with Wilford Woodruff, in New England, New Jersey. In 1837, Wilford Woodruff records in his journal that Ball was an Elder. Ball was the Boston Branch president from October 1844 to March 1845 – the largest LDS congregation outside of the Nauvoo area. He was ordained a High Priest by William Smith (the first African American HP) and was sent to Nauvoo by Parley P. Pratt in the spring of 1845 to work on the temple.
• Elijah Abel – became the third known black convert to the LDS church, being baptized in 1832. He received the priesthood in 1836, and served 3 missions to Ohio, NY, and Canada. He helped build the Kirtland, Nauvoo, and Salt Lake Temples, received his washing and anointing in the Kirtland Temple
• Walker Lewis – joined the LDS church in the summer of 1843. He was probably baptized by Parley P Pratt in the fall of 1843. He was ordained and Elder by William Smith, Joseph’s younger brother. Lewis has a very interesting history. He was the son of slaves, and sued for his own freedom. His case is cited as the case which liberated slaves in 1783 in Massachusetts. Winning the court case resulted is his family being able to purchase property. He voted, was educated, and became upper class of black Massachusetts society. In 1826 he helped found Massachusetts General Colored Association which was the first civil rights abolitionist group in the world.
• In June 1844 Joseph Smith was killed. At this time, Joseph was running for president, and advocated abolishing slavery by 1850. Such a stance was quite unpopular in slave state Missouri. It is important to remember that Joseph prophesied in 1832 about the Civil War. Slavery and race relations were hot topics during this time period, and Joseph’s abolitionist views were probably just as responsible for his assassination, as his religious views.
  Enoch Abel, Elijah’s son received the priesthood, and was ordained an elder on Nov 27, 1900.
  Elijah Abel, Enoch Abel’s son, received the priesthood, and was ordained a priest in 1934. In 1935, he was ordained an Elder.
• So it’s not all bad news. I have to wonder if Al Sharpton was aware that the first Civil Rights organization was founded by a black Mormon. Would he have made that quip about Mitt Romney?

[_Darth J]

Ray---

When I was a believing Latter-day Saint, did I have the right to tell people what I think about the Church?

Now that I am a not-believing Latter-day Saint, do I have the right to tell people what I think about the Church?

Let me tell you a little secret about life.....

When you were a Mormon did you go around saying the Catholic Church was a cult, that they practiced cannibalism? Did you go around saying that Protestant Churches were blah blah blah?

No. I went around telling people that they were not true, that they were apostate, that they did not have authority to act on God's behalf, that there were atrocities committed by them in history, and that I do not find a persuasive reason to believe their truth claims.

Or, as a Mormon, did you simply share your positive and cherished beliefs about YOUR FAITH? Sure you may have thrown in the momentary thought about whatever religion, but you focused on YOUR FAITH. You didn't focus on someone else's religion or beliefs.

When you claim that yours is the one, true church, the only one that has authority to perform saving ordinances that will be accepted by God, and that your church had to be restored because of a universal apostasy, you are necessarily making claims about every other faith on Earth.

Where you go wrong, is you need to focus on what you believe, not what you don't believe anymore. It is a defective human being that focuses primarily or even secondarily on things he no longer believes in. Move on....

You are mistakenly assuming that I believe myself to be on a cosmological battleground like you do. You are also mistaking my interest in Mormonism at this point as something other than a study of human nature and behavior.

When I left the Church and became anti-mormon, I didn't remain one for very long. Because unlike you, I actually realized that if I continued to be dogmatic about what I didn't believe, then I would close off my mind.

I always enjoy defenders of the faith saying that lack of belief based on failure of proof is "dogmatic."

I realized that if I belittled the very things in this world that LIFT mankind better than anything else, that I would be in fact serving evil, whatever that evil was, I would be serving it.

You also mistakenly presume that I do not see myself as speaking about things that drag mankind down.

Those two things combined, and I seal my fated the the damned and the ignorant.

Oh, I don't believe that you are damned.

So, I let go of my anti-mormonism and anti-religion views, and just lived my life.

I'm sure you think that your personal, idiosyncratic experiences are an analogy for everyone who has ever failed to be dazzled by the faith-promoting narrative, but you have no idea what I believe about God ("anti-religion views").

Because I was always interested in the truth, the time eventually came in which I started really studying again, but this time without judgment, just doing my part, making sure it was objective and deeply thorough, and THAT is when everything started making sense, and I came right back to Mormonism. I then studied the issues I had, and the truth was shown to me on those also. And then, came the knowledge in intellect and spirit, that the Church WAS literally the Lords Church again on the earth.

Good for you. However, your continuing insistence that denying black men the priesthood had nothing to do with race calls your commitment to "the truth" into question.

See, I didn't put my faith in my own intellect, I put my faith in the process, and if there was a God, in him. I believed his promise, that he would show all, and he did, and did it much quicker than I expected.

And, see, the thing is that it is still your intellect interpreting what you perceive to be coming from God.

As an atheist/agnostic, you/we think there is so much out there, that we can't really know anything. But it's a lie, God's promise is the actual truth. If we buckle down and do our part, the truth does come.

Anyway, sorry for the testimony, but I've been where you are.

Since I am neither an atheist nor an agnostic, and you assume without evidence that I am, I have no reason to believe that you have been where I am.