The God Delusion

[_Analytics]

I think the LDS Church itself has a really poor understanding of historic Christianity itself, and ex-Mormons seem to absorb this understanding and carry it over with them when they make the jump from doubting Mormon to some form of unbelief.

I see it a little differently. On a certain level, the God of Mormonism isn't the God of mainstream Christianity. If you stop believing in the hominoid deity of flesh and bones from a planet orbiting Kolob, you aren’t automatically going to start believing in the transcendent, omnipresent, omni-this and omni-that God of mainstream Christianity. Exmormons don’t flock to Christianity for the same reason that other non-Christians don’t—they just don’t have a very convincing message.

[_Sethbag]

I have seen several times posters say something to the effect of, "Well, the Mormon church debunks all Christian religions. Then all that's left to do in the midst of disaffection is debunk the LDS church's claims, then atheism is the logical conclusion." The unstated assumption seems to be that the LDS church's claims about Christianity are accurate, while its claims about itself are false. I can't recall meeting anyone who ever said something to the effect of, "Well, I started doubting LDS truth claims, so I also started doubting its claims about other churches as well."

My own experience is vaguely like what you are talking about here, but there is an important distinction. I don't believe that Mormonism disproved the rest of Christianity. I believe that Mormonism shares a lot of the bad thinking and epistemology of the rest of Christianity. Once I identified the reasons why Mormonism was able to hold me convinced of its truthfulness for so long, I could recognize that these same reasons, or their close cousins, or at least reasons descended from the same ancestral archetype meme, were at work in the belief systems of literally every other Christian faith that I had ever been exposed to.

So I regard myself as having "seen through" not only the problems with Mormonism (thought problems, not theological problems), but also having recognized that these same problems, or similar ones which operate on the same basic principles, are at work in all these other churches.

And theologically I view the Bible as utterly bankrupt now, so Bible-based religions are going to have a massively uphill climb to convince me already, and as soon as I recognize the bad thinking in their attempts to explain themselves, the pattern-recognition circuits in my brain start firing off alarm bells, and it's pretty much game over.

[_EAllusion]

I don't think "new atheism" is a coherent thing. To an extent, it refers to a few pop-atheist writers, but I think it's mostly a vague insult aimed at any atheist who comes off as interested in science and is willing to criticize religious faith(s).

[_EAllusion]

I think most of the standard reasoning used to justify belief in the Christian faith generally is applicable to Mormonism specifically. Most of theistic justification in theology isn't really aimed at Christian belief specifically. There's a huge chasm from the generic god of apologia to Jesus Christ that is bridged with the sort of arguments that can be retrofitted to Mormonism without much trouble. If you come to lose faith in the latter, it calls into question faith in the former. Take, for instance, Habermas style resurrection arguments and compare them to Book of Mormon witness arguments. Or just take appeals to faith, salvatory experience, and changed lives.

[_just me]

I have seen several times posters say something to the effect of, "Well, the Mormon church debunks all Christian religions. Then all that's left to do in the midst of disaffection is debunk the LDS church's claims, then atheism is the logical conclusion." The unstated assumption seems to be that the LDS church's claims about Christianity are accurate, while its claims about itself are false. I can't recall meeting anyone who ever said something to the effect of, "Well, I started doubting LDS truth claims, so I also started doubting its claims about other churches as well."

My own experience is vaguely like what you are talking about here, but there is an important distinction. I don't believe that Mormonism disproved the rest of Christianity. I believe that Mormonism shares a lot of the bad thinking and epistemology of the rest of Christianity. Once I identified the reasons why Mormonism was able to hold me convinced of its truthfulness for so long, I could recognize that these same reasons, or their close cousins, or at least reasons descended from the same ancestral archetype meme, were at work in the belief systems of literally every other Christian faith that I had ever been exposed to.

So I regard myself as having "seen through" not only the problems with Mormonism (thought problems, not theological problems), but also having recognized that these same problems, or similar ones which operate on the same basic principles, are at work in all these other churches.

And theologically I view the Bible as utterly bankrupt now, so Bible-based religions are going to have a massively uphill climb to convince me already, and as soon as I recognize the bad thinking in their attempts to explain themselves, the pattern-recognition circuits in my brain start firing off alarm bells, and it's pretty much game over.

Great post. Thanks!

[_Aristotle Smith]

I think most of the standard reasoning used to justify belief in the Christian faith generally is applicable to Mormonism specifically. If you come to lose faith in the latter, it calls into question faith in the former.

I disagree, but for the sake of argument I'll grant the proposition.

I still don't think it explains why most Mormons leave the LDS church, therefore it doesn't explain why few ex-Mormons consider Christianity or theism in general. In my experience most people leave the LDS church for a set of highly specific Mormon reasons, such as: Book of Abraham problems, polygamy, Book of Mormon historicity issues, Mountain Meadows Massacre, General Authority fibs, multiple first vision accounts, etc. None of those is particularly generalizable beyond a Mormon context.

I'm sure some assume these problems are generalizable beyond the LDS church, but I don't think most delve into any specifics on the matter. For example, many ex-Mormons might delve into excruciating detail investigating Book of Abraham and Book of Mormon issues. Then they hear about problems associated with the Bible and assume that the Book of Abraham and Book of Mormon investigation directly applies to the Bible. I have rarely, if ever, seen ex-Mormons apply the same level of effort to non-Mormon issues as they did to Mormon issues.

[_Rambo]

Then they hear about problems associated with the Bible and assume that the Book of Abraham and Book of Mormon investigation directly applies to the Bible.

I never thought of it in this way and I don't think other exmormons that go atheist think of it this way either.

This is interesting though.

[_EAllusion]

I still don't think it explains why most Mormons leave the LDS church, therefore it doesn't explain why few ex-Mormons consider Christianity or theism in general. In my experience most people leave the LDS church for a set of highly specific Mormon reasons, such as: Book of Abraham problems, polygamy, Book of Mormon historicity issues, Mountain Meadows Massacre, General Authority fibs, multiple first vision accounts, etc. None of those is particularly generalizable beyond a Mormon context.

But Christianity has its only specific issues, some of which directly paralleling Mormonism's, that are counterbalanced by a set of reasons to maintain faith (including the idea of faith as a virtue in of itself.) If those reasons are eventually viewed as inadequate because of their failure in Mormonism's case, then Christianity's problems are brought into relief without defense just the same. For example, many LDS justify their belief in their faith as well as belief in God generally by religious experience arguments. It is no stretch to view their failure in one case as reason to doubt them in the other.

Regarding the phenomenon of few ex-Mormons considering Christianity, I'm not sure that is the case. Anecdotal experience with a few ex-Mormons online isn't sufficiently representative to draw broad conclusions about what is actually going on. It very well may be the case that large numbers of ex-Mormons do consider other Christian views. To the extent that this occurs, I would first look to Mormonism's high investment nature and tendency to offer secularism as its alternative.

[_MrStakhanovite]

I think most of the standard reasoning used to justify belief in the Christian faith generally is applicable to Mormonism specifically.

I don’t.

Most of theistic justification in theology isn't really aimed at Christian belief specifically.

I think you are mistaking your exposure to where Natural Theology clashes with Philosophy and thinking that is a representative of the entire package of Christian Theology, which is actually just a minority.

There's a huge chasm from the generic god of apologia to Jesus Christ that is bridged with the sort of arguments that can be retrofitted to Mormonism without much trouble.

I disagree, three distinct deities, two of which have flesh and blood, who are co-eternal with some kind of material “stuff”, who physically live within the universe, cannot make use of the majority of tools within a classical apologetics toolbox.

If you come to lose faith in the latter, it calls into question faith in the former. Take, for instance, Habermas style resurrection arguments and compare them to Book of Mormon witness arguments. Or just take appeals to faith, salvatory experience, and changed lives.

But Gary Habermas is an apologist who focuses on Analytic Philosophy of Religion, again, whose main exposure is through his disputations with atheists. Theology isn’t Philosophy of Religion, and there are a lot more powerful thinkers who don’t engage in apologetics who simply have no parallel within Mormonism.

[_MrStakhanovite]

Exmormons don’t flock to Christianity for the same reason that other non-Christians don’t—they just don’t have a very convincing message.

I think most Non-Christians don’t even accurately understand Christianity, just like most Christians don’t know much about other religions, and what little is known, is distorted through some apologetic presentation.