Kim Jong Il and Joseph Smith

[_sock puppet]

RayA, why do you think that Jesus' miracles were not worth writing down by anyone, for years, even decades, after he was dead?

To test unbelievers like you!

Why then ever write them down? Wouldn't that even make it more of a test, if the "Gospel" was all oral?

[_Sethbag]

I don't think that Joseph Smith had nearly the ruthlessness that Kim Jong Il had. KJI thought nothing of having people tortured and killed. I know about the Danites and whatnot, but it doesn't even come close to the utter disregard for life that the North Koreans show.

Maybe that's because Joe didn't have the resources in his time to do that. I think he may have tried, given the ability. He certainly did enough to think he may have become a dictator were he given the chance. Brigham sure did.

While it's not something I would rule out, this kind of thing is way, way too speculative, and goes beyond what the history would suggest, IMHO. I'm not comfortable with this whole thread, to be honest. Comparisons between Joseph Smith and the likes of Kim Jong Il are too far out there. I'd say comparisons between Joseph Smith and David Koresh or Rev. Moon, even Jim Jones would be more appropriate.

[_RayAgostini]

Why then ever write them down? Wouldn't that even make it more of a test, if the "Gospel" was all oral?

That would just make you more, er, anti-Christ? I don't like calling you that, honestly, but you and DarthJ have to be the two best performing clowns in the MDB circus. When the complete erosion of faith in Christ is complete, I hope you toast one another, back pat and congratulate yourselves on having made the world better by being "Christ free". You know, free of that fraud who claimed to be the Son of God. Free of that useless soul who only ever existed in Greek and Egyptian myths.

Now watch DarthJ back-pedal, or maybe I'm wrong.

[_ludwigm]

I don't think that Joseph Smith had nearly the ruthlessness that Kim Jong Il had. KJI thought nothing of having people tortured and killed. I know about the Danites and whatnot, but it doesn't even come close to the utter disregard for life that the North Koreans show.

Maybe that's because Joe didn't have the resources in his time to do that. I think he may have tried, given the ability. He certainly did enough to think he may have become a dictator were he given the chance. Brigham sure did.

While it's not something I would rule out, this kind of thing is way, way too speculative, and goes beyond what the history would suggest, IMHO. I'm not comfortable with this whole thread, to be honest. Comparisons between Joseph Smith and the likes of Kim Jong Il are too far out there. I'd say comparisons between Joseph Smith and David Koresh or Rev. Moon, even Jim Jones would be more appropriate.

"comparisons between Joseph Smith and David Koresh or Rev. Moon, even Jim Jones"
= 80% match

"comparisons between Joseph Smith and the likes of Kim Jong Il"
= 70% match

Not too far...


by the way Your avatar can cause photosensitive epilepsy.

[_sock puppet]

Why then ever write them down? Wouldn't that even make it more of a test, if the "Gospel" was all oral?

That would just make you more, er, anti-Christ? I don't like calling you that, honestly, but you and DarthJ have to be the two best performing clowns in the MDB circus. When the complete erosion of faith in Christ is complete, I hope you toast one another, back pat and congratulate yourselves on having made the world better by being "Christ free". You know, free of that fraud who claimed to be the Son of God. Free of that useless soul who only ever existed in Greek and Egyptian myths.

Now watch DarthJ back-pedal, or maybe I'm wrong.

If I recall correctly, Darth J is a theist, and perhaps a Christian believer at that. Don't know why you'd think otherwise, just because he's not a fan of Mormonism.

You may call me whatever you think appropriate. I may dispute the characterization, but that should not cause you any apprehension in calling me what you think I am in the first place.

[_Buffalo]

No surprise there from SP. Can I call you anti-Christ? Or is that a stretch?

Jesus failed as Messiah. The Messiah was never supposed to be murdered.

[_Buffalo]

RayA, why do you think that Jesus' miracles were not worth writing down by anyone, for years, even decades, after he was dead?

To test unbelievers like you!

You are DarthJ have one purpose in mind - to get people to "think like you", which you suppose is "rational", and will lead to....? Happiness? Yet you both have to ignore so much to preach your gospel of materialism, which you suppose will "bring happiness"? We cannot possibly understand anything, unless it can be "explained" by appealing to the five precious senses.

Darth lost the plot ages ago. You are now just his empty echo.

Why do you have to be so negative and one-sided all the time? :(

[_Runtu]

Speaking of Kim Jong-Il, I see that Rick Perry is providing more entertainment:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/201 ... -name.html

[_sock puppet]

RayA, why do you think that Jesus' miracles were not worth writing down by anyone, for years, even decades, after he was dead?

To test unbelievers like you!

You are DarthJ have one purpose in mind - to get people to "think like you", which you suppose is "rational", and will lead to....? Happiness? Yet you both have to ignore so much to preach your gospel of materialism, which you suppose will "bring happiness"? We cannot possibly understand anything, unless it can be "explained" by appealing to the five precious senses.

RayA, I do not ask myself, much less others, to believe that which cannot be independently verified. Yes, data received through the five senses is important to that, just as is the ability to logically deduce from that data and to induce from it the best explanation that accounts for all the data. The scientific method has proven much more reliable for ascertaining truth than the "holy spirit" and feeling good (because I want something to be "true"). Rational thought Trump's hopes/dreams when it comes to finding out truth.

Your mileage, RayA, may vary.

I think it is the height of arrogance to suggest that a thought process that might swirl around in my mind, with nothing to back it up, be relied upon by others to behave or change their lives in any way. Yet that is exactly part of the Mormon inculcation process. That's the whole point of testimony bearing. Indeed, when I started my mission, within days we were visited by one of the apostles who said that many of us probably didn't have testimonies independent of those of our parents or home ward/stake leaders. He indicated that now, as we were about to go out in the mission field, we should rely on the testimonies as borne by the FP/12, until we developed one for ourselves.

[_Panopticon]

I admit that Joseph Smith was not at the level of Kim Jong Il during the Nauvoo period. He was still restricted by the laws of the United States. But think about what was happening at the Council of Fifty. Think about the Danite band (I know some of you will say that he never approved of Avard, but there is evidence that Joseph Smith used him in the same way that Henry II killed Thomas Becket by openly asking whether someone would rid him of "troublesome" people).

Imagine if his lust for women, which was checked somewhat by the 19th Century standards of propriety, became unchecked in Utah.

There is evidence that he became violent when people questioned his revelations (he attacked his brother William, for example).

Who knows what would have happened if he became the god-king of Salt Lake, but it is interesting to speculate about it.