A Talk Last Night With My Daughter

[_sock puppet]

i am pretty sure this statement is false. the prophet is a prophet and that means he speaks to the lord with the counselors as witnesses. if you think the prophet is just some guy that has no greater insight into the mind of god or access, what is the point of the prophet?

what?

Your comment helps to bring the entire issue into focus, LJ, and I appreciate that.

Using your argument that the LDS prophet has ready access to the mind of God, why is it that blacks could not hold the priesthood in the Mormon Church from Brigham Young to Spencer Kimball?

If God uses his prophet to reveal his will, why is it LDS women are treated as second class citizens?

If Heavenly Mother were giving daily revelation to the prophet, do you think the message would be the same? Do you think a prophetess would be leading the Church?

Do you think Heavenly Mother holds the priesthood?

I have lots of questions, but these should suffice for the present.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

My view on this...and again, this may just be my blasphemous gospel according to Liz...is that God only reveals to men what they are ready to receive. I think that God understands that he made mistakes, and is hoping that his children do a better job. Isn't that what we, as parents hope and do?

Hi, liz. Hope you are enjoying your holidays, and your health is cooperating in that.

The part about elohim/jehovan only reveals to men what they are ready to receive is a good excuse for why society's moral advances outpace the moral advancements of revelations from elohim/jehovah. But then why does man need elohim/jehovah (much less the prophet and apostles) if man is readying himself just fine without them?

I think it is interesting that you think elohim/jehovah has made mistakes, realizes them, and hopes we do better. elohim/jehovah's hope is being realized. Mankind is doing a hell of a lot better job at moral development than elohim/jehovah.

[_Yoda]

Hi, liz. Hope you are enjoying your holidays, and your health is cooperating in that.

The part about elohim/jehovan only reveals to men what they are ready to receive is a good excuse for why society's moral advances outpace the moral advancements of revelations from elohim/jehovah. But then why does man need elohim/jehovah (much less the prophet and apostles) if man is readying himself just fine without them?

I think it is interesting that you think elohim/jehovah has made mistakes, realizes them, and hopes we do better. elohim/jehovah's hope is being realized. Mankind is doing a hell of a lot better job at moral development than elohim/jehovah.

Thanks for the kind words, Sock Puppet! :-)

Like I said, this is all "the gospel according to Liz"..so I may find myself burning in a fiery pit someday for all I know..LOL

My insights come from my own experiences of being a parent...and also from being in the unique experience of parenting both an 8 year old boy and two girls in their 20's at the same time. You gain a lot of different perspective.

As to your questions...I'm breaking them up into two questions:

Why does man currently need Elohim/Jehova?

I personally feel that God does answer prayers, and provides support when His children need it. Is it a perfect process? No. But I cannot deny that I have had prayers answered..and not just the "I can't find my keys" type of prayers.

The poem that continues to touch me is "Footsteps". I know that there are times when I have been carried.

One night a man had a dream. He dreamed He was walking along the beach with the LORD. Across the sky flashed scenes from His life. For each scene He noticed two sets of footprints in the sand. One belonging to Him and the other to the LORD.

When the last scene of His life flashed before Him, he looked back at the footprints in the sand. He noticed that many times along the path of His life there was only one set of footprints. He also noticed that it happened at the very lowest and saddest times of His life.

This really bothered Him and He questioned the LORD about it. LORD you said that once I decided to follow you, you'd walk with me all the way. But I have noticed that during the most troublesome times in my life there is only one set of footprints. I don't understand why when I needed you most you would leave me.

The LORD replied, my precious, precious child, I Love you and I would never leave you! During your times of trial and suffering when you see only one set of footprints, it was then that I carried you.

As to your second question...Why do we still need prophets and apostles? I think that they are still able to receive revelation in their own sphere of readiness, and that they are still effective in leading missionaries and teaching gospel principles. I also feel that there will be an eventual shift, and that you will see women also fulfilling roles as prophets and apostles...just as there were female prophets and apostles during the days of Christ.

[_Lizard Jew]

i am pretty sure this statement is false. the prophet is a prophet and that means he speaks to the lord with the counselors as witnesses. if you think the prophet is just some guy that has no greater insight into the mind of god or access, what is the point of the prophet?

what?

Your comment helps to bring the entire issue into focus, LJ, and I appreciate that.

Using your argument that the LDS prophet has ready access to the mind of God, why is it that blacks could not hold the priesthood in the Mormon Church from Brigham Young to Spencer Kimball?

If God uses his prophet to reveal his will, why is it LDS women are treated as second class citizens?

If Heavenly Mother were giving daily revelation to the prophet, do you think the message would be the same? Do you think a prophetess would be leading the Church?

Do you think Heavenly Mother holds the priesthood?

I have lots of questions, but these should suffice for the present.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

this board kicks ass.

i believe the prophet is just that. a prophet. not just some bozo giving his opinion about things or "feel the spirit". i can do that myself. other churches have people to do that too.

it bothers me when some apologist wannabees throw the best thing about the church away. its apostacy.

i don't know anything about why blacks couldn't have the priesthood before. i don't know why women can't either. all i know comes from the prophets. blacks were less valient, it isn't womens place, they have motherhood.

if god gave the priesthood to women and i prayed and got a similar confirmation as with a man, why not?

not now.

not the time.

[_harmony]

i don't know anything about why blacks couldn't have the priesthood before. i don't know why women can't either. all i know comes from the prophets. blacks were less valient, it isn't womens place, they have motherhood.

And that is the caliber of prophecy we can expect from LDS prophets... as in none. But then, maybe it's not their fault. They are, after all is said and done, just men, and we all know what men are known for.

if god gave the priesthood to women and i prayed and got a similar confirmation as with a man, why not?

You'll be glad to know that God already did that... and men took it upon themselves to nullify his wishes. I don't know about you, but I see a pattern there.

[_Lizard Jew]

i don't know anything about why blacks couldn't have the priesthood before. i don't know why women can't either. all i know comes from the prophets. blacks were less valient, it isn't womens place, they have motherhood.

And that is the caliber of prophecy we can expect from LDS prophets... as in none. But then, maybe it's not their fault. They are, after all is said and done, just men, and we all know what men are known for.

if god gave the priesthood to women and i prayed and got a similar confirmation as with a man, why not?

You'll be glad to know that God already did that... and men took it upon themselves to nullify his wishes. I don't know about you, but I see a pattern there.

I've never heard of a woman getting the priesthood. when did this happen?

[_consiglieri]

i don't know anything about why blacks couldn't have the priesthood before. i don't know why women can't either. all i know comes from the prophets. blacks were less valient, it isn't womens place, they have motherhood.

I think you may be inadvertently proving Liz's point that prophets make mistakes.

You are correct that it was a common trope that blacks were less valiant in the premortal existence as a rationale for their not holding the priesthood.

But this was the tail wagging the dog. It was never revealed that blacks were less valiant, but because blacks could not hold the priesthood, this argument was advanced as a basis, and gained currency in the Mormon Church.

That reasoning has been recently debunked by Elder Holland on PBS who stated quite clearly that the fence sitter argument was wrong, regardless of who may have said it in the past.

Which brings us quite naturally to women's equality.

It remains a current trope that women do not hold the priesthood because they have motherhood. But this is once more the tail wagging the dog, just as it was for the blacks.

Can you at least admit the possibility of a future apostle saying the same thing regarding women as Elder Holland has said regarding blacks?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_Yoda]

I've never heard of a woman getting the priesthood. when did this happen

Pay close attention next time you are in the temple.

In the Initiatory, women lay their hands upon other women during that process, and have complete authority to administer the blessings of godhood.

Also, as I stated previously, when Joseph Smith first established the Relief Society, it was an organization equal to the Priesthood, not an auxiliary. It was also common practice during the early days of the Church for women to administer to the sick.

[_Lizard Jew]

I've never heard of a woman getting the priesthood. when did this happen

Pay close attention next time you are in the temple.

In the Initiatory, women lay their hands upon other women during that process, and have complete authority to administer the blessings of godhood.

Also, as I stated previously, when Joseph Smith first established the Relief Society, it was an organization equal to the Priesthood, not an auxiliary. It was also common practice during the early days of the Church for women to administer to the sick.

i'm not calling you a liar. where can i see this?

[_LDSToronto]

Pay close attention next time you are in the temple.

In the Initiatory, women lay their hands upon other women during that process, and have complete authority to administer the blessings of godhood.

Also, as I stated previously, when Joseph Smith first established the Relief Society, it was an organization equal to the Priesthood, not an auxiliary. It was also common practice during the early days of the Church for women to administer to the sick.

I'm not calling you a liar. where can i see this?

google.

H.

[_Lizard Jew]

consigliari,

it is an odd thought to think that god would have let the blacks get the priestood taken from them and never tell the prophet he was wrong.

i find that a little hard to believe.

this is basically saying that the prophet is'New Testament the prophet!