reasons for leaving the church

[_Lizard Jew]

i know there are many ways to look at these things. there are lots of brilliant people, way smarter than me and they know all the stuff and believe still.

why is that?

am i smarter than they are? i am pretty ignorant on a lot of things. i got a book for christmas about church history and it sparked interest in me. but so many people?

so you left for the history?

It's not about who is smart or not. A lot of people who are smarter than I am have left the church, and others continue to believe. For me, the evidence was too obvious, and to continue believing would have required a serious loss of integrity. I wanted the church to be true, but its truth claims did not hold up to scrutiny.

what is the biggest truth claim you think is bad?

if there was one thing to prove the church not true what is it?

[_Chap]

there are lots of brilliant people, way smarter than me and they know all the stuff and believe still.

why is that?

In my experience, clever people who believe in a religion like Mormonism - the kind that take quite a lot of effort to believe in, rather than vague uplift - nearly always do so because their parents brought them up to believe.

Because they are clever, they get very good at finding answers to almost any objection to their religion. And there always are answers of some kind to almost any objection, even if they are only the kind that give you the feeling 'so it could still all be true ... let's hang on to our faith and it will turn out OK'.

Unfortunately, there are clever people who believe in lots of different religions. Have you met any Jesuits, for instance? They tend to be super-clever and highly educated, and they believe in the Roman Catholic religion, just the same way clever Mormons like Daniel Peterson believe in Mormonism. And there are clever Buddhists, clever Hindus, and clever Orthodox Jews too.

So I am afraid that saying 'Smart guys believe in my religion, so why shouldn't I?' is not a very useful argument.

[_Yoda]

Lizard Jew--

I appreciate the fact that you have opened yourself up to wanting honest feedback. It is obvious to me that you love your sister very much.

I am an active member. However, I am, as some would call it, a NOM. I hold a temple recommend, and two callings in my ward. There are issues, however, which I have problems with. I vent about those issues here, and also try to make improvements within my own ward and stake...much like Consig, Jason, and Harmony do.

Welcome to the board, by the way! :-)

I agree with Stak. Take baby steps with her.

Just be her brother. Let her know that you love her, that you will always love her, and that you will be her brother, no matter what.

Trust me. That will mean more to her than anything.

And, it is also in keeping with the true spirit of Christ.

Good luck!

stak said about the same.

what i worry about is that a conversation has two ways.

if i just sit there and nod and say nothing it will look like I'm not listening.

i feel like i should have something smart to say back to her.

so i asked here for help.

LOL! No offense, but you are a typical man! Take it from a woman...when we talk, we aren't always looking for someone to provide an instant solution.

Sometimes, we just want someone to acknowledge how we feel, and know that we have a base support.

[_Jaybear]

stak said about the same.

what i worry about is that a conversation has two ways.

if i just sit there and nod and say nothing it will look like I'm not listening.

i feel like i should have something smart to say back to her.

so i asked here for help.

What are you hoping to accomplish by this conversation?

If your goal is to better understand what brought her to this point, the best advice was to ask Sky and California Boy for advice, as they have been on the other side of the discussion. I would throw in Daniel as well.

If your goal is to convince here that its best she stay in the LDS Church and repress her innate sexuality, then go talk to Wade.

Or you can just talk to her, and speak from your heart. I doubt she is expecting you to have the answers to her concerns.

[_Buffalo]

what is the biggest truth claim you think is bad?

if there was one thing to prove the church not true what is it?

It seems to be different for everyone. For instance, some people really have a lot of trouble with the different versions of the first vision. It didn't trouble me too much. My main reason was the conflict between biology/archeology/anthropology/atronomy/etc and scripture.

Something I encountered after I stopped believing that still strikes me as one of the strongest points against the church is the claim that Deutero-Isaiah was on the brass plates of Laban. That's very problematic since Deutero-Isaiah was written after the fall of Jerusalem.

[_Lizard Jew]

stak said about the same.

what i worry about is that a conversation has two ways.

if i just sit there and nod and say nothing it will look like I'm not listening.

i feel like i should have something smart to say back to her.

so i asked here for help.

What are you hoping to accomplish by this conversation?

If your goal is to better understand what brought her to this point, the best advice was to ask Sky and California Boy for advice, as they have been on the other side of the discussion. I would throw in Daniel as well.

If your goal is to convince here that its best she stay in the LDS Church and repress her innate sexuality, then go talk to Wade.

Or you can just talk to her, and speak from your heart. I doubt she is expecting you to have the answers to her concerns.

i have no idea what im expecting. I've never had one like this. i'm curious too.

[_Lizard Jew]

liz,
yes i am a typical man. its what drives the ladies wild.

[_Lizard Jew]

what is the biggest truth claim you think is bad?

if there was one thing to prove the church not true what is it?

It seems to be different for everyone. For instance, some people really have a lot of trouble with the different versions of the first vision. It didn't trouble me too much. My main reason was the conflict between biology/archeology/anthropology/atronomy/etc and scripture.

Something I encountered after I stopped believing that still strikes me as one of the strongest points against the church is the claim that Deutero-Isaiah was on the brass plates of Laban. That's very problematic since Deutero-Isaiah was written after the fall of Jerusalem.

can you talk more about this?

[_Yoda]

liz,
yes i am a typical man. its what drives the ladies wild.

LOL!

[Guest]

i know there are many ways to look at these things. there are lots of brilliant people, way smarter than me and they know all the stuff and believe still.

why is that?

am i smarter than they are? i am pretty ignorant on a lot of things. i got a book for christmas about church history and it sparked interest in me. but so many people?

Hi Lizard Jew,

Your comment above is very similar to one shared with my by a local ward member who is currently trying to fellowship our family back into the church.

I think the questions you have to ask yourself include:

First, can you honestly say these supposedly brilliant people "believe still"? In what do they believe, exactly? Does it really overlap with your own beliefs in large measure?

Second, why do you want to abdicate your own agency away to someone else on the grounds you suspect they are "way smarter than" you?

I don't think you are giving yourself enough credit here and these supposedly brilliant people too much credit. My experience in life is - If the emperor appears naked, chances are he really is naked. Just because some other people act like he's wearing fancy robes doesn't mean you should doubt your own abilities to discern these things.

Also - what Stak said. Maybe what your sister needs right now is someone who may have been there for her during past struggles to still be in her corner willing to accept her for the person you've always known her to be? "Gay" or "straight", "Mormon" or "apostate" - these are just labels and it appears until recently not ones you would apply to your sister. Why let the labels become the focus of your relationship? As Stak noted, this doesn't mean lying about your own feelings about the church. But try listening and being supportive of her, rather than trying to combat the labels.