Lizard Jew wrote:what is the biggest truth claim you think is bad?
if there was one thing to prove the church not true what is it?
Proof? I don't think so. For me, it was just the sum total of all the stuff I was making excuses for. Once I stopped making excuses, it all just fell apart. I suppose the straw that broke the camel's back was Joseph's self-serving, manipulative, and deceitful practice of polygamy and polyandry. I finally realized it was wrong to give him a pass for that. Once I stopped excusing that, everything else went, too.
Lizard Jew wrote:i know there are many ways to look at these things. there are lots of brilliant people, way smarter than me and they know all the stuff and believe still.
why is that?
am i smarter than they are? i am pretty ignorant on a lot of things. i got a book for christmas about church history and it sparked interest in me. but so many people?
Hi Lizard Jew,
Your comment above is very similar to one shared with my by a local ward member who is currently trying to fellowship our family back into the church.
I think the questions you have to ask yourself include:
First, can you honestly say these supposedly brilliant people "believe still"? In what do they believe, exactly? Does it really overlap with your own beliefs in large measure?
Second, why do you want to abdicate your own agency away to someone else on the grounds you suspect they are "way smarter than" you?
I don't think you are giving yourself enough credit here and these supposedly brilliant people too much credit. My experience in life is - If the emperor appears naked, chances are he really is naked. Just because some other people act like he's wearing fancy robes doesn't mean you should doubt your own abilities to discern these things.
Also - what Stak said. Maybe what she needs right now is someone who may have been there for her during past struggles to still be in her corner willing to accept her for the person you've always known her to be? "Gay" or "straight", "Mormon" or "apostate" - these are just labels and it appears until recently not ones you would apply to your sister. Why let the labels become the focus of your relationship? As Stak noted, this doesn't mean lying about your own feelings about the church. But try listening and being supportive of her, rather than trying to combat the labels.
i admit i don't fully get what you mean with the first one.
I left because I found out it is not true. If the unfalsifiable parts were true, then the organization would not need to hide the historical truth about the problems of early Mormonism. COJCOLDS distorts that history and whitewashes. COJCOLDS is, as an institution, a liar. You've heard of corporate crimes, well, what we have here is a corporate liar.
Then there are the improbabilities of Mormonism's truth claims. There is ample archaeological evidence supporting the Bible. E.g., there is the city of Jerusalem. But where is the archaeological evidence of the Book of Mormon? If that's a large sucking sound you are hearing right about now, that is because I referred to the large Mormon vacuum of evidence. So, we are to believe that God would leave scattered around Egypt, the Arabian peninsula, and where Israel now is many traces and evidences that buttress evidence of one tome of God's word (scripture), the Bible, but has obliterated all evidence (including DNA) of the Nephites, Lamanites and Jaredites talked about in another tome of God's word, the Book of Mormon?
Then there is the gift that just never stops giving. The BoAbr and the KEP. Read up on Kevin Graham's analyses. In short, it proves JSJr was making up Mormon scripture out of thin air--without supernatural help.
If you were to calculate the improbabilities of these 'scriptures' of Mormons being the word of God, and then toss on the fact that the COJCOLDS continues to lie about its own past that is well documented, historically, one is left with the conclusion it is all bupkis.
i know there are many ways to look at these things. there are lots of brilliant people, way smarter than me and they know all the stuff and believe still.
why is that?
am i smarter than they are? i am pretty ignorant on a lot of things. i got a book for christmas about church history and it sparked interest in me. but so many people?
so you left for the history?
Early Mormon history of itself is very troubling for the truth claims of Mormonism. However, I found the fact that COJCOLDS continues in the face of that historical record becoming well known, to whitewash and lie about early Mormon history to be the clincher for me. If it's all true, then why not air out everything?
Later, the lack of archaeological or DNA evidence for what is supposed to have occurred here in the Americas, per the Book of Mormon, and then the mountain of evidence against the BoAbr, just came down like an avalanche and snuffed out any lingering possibilities for me about Mormonism's truth claims.
Under all that rubble, the epithet of Mormonism's truth claims is, for me: DRIP (don't rest in peace)
Have you ever had an extended discussion with one of these people online or at least read in detail what they think on any of the specific subjects that interest you regarding LDS history?
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth? ~ Eiji Yoshikawa
Given what I've experienced of you on this board, I'd say your best approach is to say nothing.
H.
"Others cannot endure their own littleness unless they can translate it into meaningfulness on the largest possible level." ~ Ernest Becker "Whether you think of it as heavenly or as earthly, if you love life immortality is no consolation for death." ~ Simone de Beauvoir
You now assume that she will leave the church because of it.
YOU want to initiate an email conversation with her about...what?...her "problems?"
You want us to help you know how to come back against any criticism she may launch against the church?
How old is she? How old are you?
Your sister just did what is likely the most difficult thing she has ever done in her LIFE.
Please just email her and tell her that you love her and accept her. I also suggest that you capitalize the first letter of every sentence and all of your I's. ;)
IF (and that is a big if) she tells you that she is upset about the way the church treats gays tell her that you are sorry that she is hurting.
Things NOT to say, or any variation like unto it:
*I don't know who you are anymore *I'm disappointed in you *You are leaving the church to sin *You are a tool of the devil *Satan got you *Our relationship is ruined *You are choosing to be gay
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden ~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
I would leave religion out of the conversation unless she brings it up.
If she wants to stay LDS then great, tell her that you will support her even if most stubborn LDS people will not. If she wants to break away, again tell her you will support her decision.
lizard jew wrote:i just got an email copied to me from my mother telling me my sister is gay now.
i think she is leaving the church over this issue.
i can understand why.
it must be hard to be gay and have to be a Mormon too.
eventually i will talk to her about it.
for now i want information.
i can tell that many of you were once upon a time members of the church.
now none of you believe in your testimonies anymore.
why is that?
I haven’t left the Church but I no longer have a testimony of its truthfulness. Why no testimony? Because maintaining and bearing a testimony of the Church does not bring happiness. True believing Mormons, behind the cheerful façade, are tense, stressed-out, and generally unhappy.
If your sister’s happiness is important to you, tell her you’ll support and love her regardless of whether she stays in the Church or not. Family, after all, is more important than religion.
Anybody who tells you different is trying to sell you something.
Corpsegrinder wrote: True believing Mormons, behind the cheerful façade, are tense, stressed-out, and generally unhappy.
This is not true of the believing Mormons I know (but I don't live in Zion).
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.