reasons for leaving the church

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_Fence Sitter
_Emeritus
Posts: 8862
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Re: reasons for leaving the church

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Lizard Jew wrote: Deutero-Isaiah?
the second one. how do they think they know its written later?


Because certain parts of Isaiah do not make sense unless they were written after Lehi left Jerusalem which would make it impossible to already have been written on the plates of Laben. Here is more information on the subject.

Two anachronisms in the book relate to the issue of Isaiah. First, critical scholars with good reason have concluded that much of the biblical book, especially chapters 40-66, do not come from the eight century BCE prophet Isaiah, but from a later time. For example, the temporal perspective in chapters 40-55 (from which several of the BM Isaiah chapters come) is that of about 540 BCE. The people have recently suffered destruction at the hands of the Babylonians (in 586 BCE). The temple, Jerusalem, and other cities have been destroyed and need rebuilding. Many of the people are now in Mesopotamia, in captivity; but Babylonian might is waning and release from captivity is imminent. Cyrus, the Persian king, is the political leader who will effect the release (c. 538 BCE). It is not just the mention of specific sixth-centry BCE historical figures and events that pin these chapters to that time. Also telling is that precision in description ceases at this point in time. The era after the release is described in general terms, and this description is in error since bounteous blessing did not ensue. The lack of fulfillment gave Jewish, Christian and Mormon interpreters cause to reapply the chapters to later events. That Isaiah 40-55 were written after the middle of the sixth century BCE is also indicated by their perfect conceptual fit between other prophetic works written in the first half of the sixth century BCE (Jeremiah and Ezekiel) and those written at the end of this century (Haggai and Zechariah 1-8). This dating for this part of Isaiah means it could not have been available to Lehi's family when they, according to the story, left for the New World around 600 BCE--Nephi, Jacob, Abinadi, and Noah's false priests could not have cited from it.

The second anachronism is the BM's interpretation of Isaiah. This, which generally follows cited portions of Isaiah (cf. 1 Ne 22; 2 Ne 9-10, 25-33; Mos 12:25-31; 3 Ne 23:1-5) though is sometimes interspersed within the citiation (cf. 2 Ne 6:6-18; 26:15-27:35), for the most part reinterprets the Isaiah passages to apply to the time of Joseph Smith and the course of Jewish and Christian history up to his time. This reflects the compositional horizon of the book, just as various passages in Second Isaiah (noted above) reflect that work's compositional horizon. Indeed, the course of history laid out in the interpretation and elsewhere in the BM is clear and defined up to the time of the appearance of the BM, but is quite unspecific about events thereafter, just as Second Isaiah is quite indefinite about events after about 540 BCE. Furthermore, the BM shares perceptions about the meaning of Isaiah and methods of prophetic interpretation that were extant among students and readers of Isaiah in the decades just before the BM came forth. This chronological horizon and these interpretive views are evidence that the interpretation of Isaiah in the BM is the work of Smith himself.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Buffalo
_Emeritus
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Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:33 pm

Re: reasons for leaving the church

Post by _Buffalo »

Lizard Jew wrote:the second one. how do they think they know its written later?


Parts of it are addressed to Cyrus the Great, which helps establish the date. The writing style is also very different from Proto-Isaiah (Isaiah 1-40, written by the actual Isaiah).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Is ... 80.9355.29
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Lizard Jew
_Emeritus
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Re: reasons for leaving the church

Post by _Lizard Jew »

Buffalo wrote:
Lizard Jew wrote:the second one. how do they think they know its written later?


Parts of it are addressed to Cyrus the Great, which helps establish the date. The writing style is also very different from Proto-Isaiah (Isaiah 1-40, written by the actual Isaiah).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Is ... 80.9355.29
hmmmmmmm
john 3:16 is overused.
_just me
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Re: reasons for leaving the church

Post by _just me »

Lizard Jew wrote:
just me wrote:I don't understand.

You mom told you your sister is gay.

You now assume that she will leave the church because of it.

YOU want to initiate an email conversation with her about...what?...her "problems?"

You want us to help you know how to come back against any criticism she may launch against the church?

How old is she? How old are you?

Your sister just did what is likely the most difficult thing she has ever done in her LIFE.

Please just email her and tell her that you love her and accept her. I also suggest that you capitalize the first letter of every sentence and all of your I's. ;)

IF (and that is a big if) she tells you that she is upset about the way the church treats gays tell her that you are sorry that she is hurting.

Things NOT to say, or any variation like unto it:

*I don't know who you are anymore
*I'm disappointed in you
*You are leaving the church to sin
*You are a tool of the devil
*Satan got you
*Our relationship is ruined
*You are choosing to be gay

sorry if i don't answer everything. i feel a little buried from all the people posting back.

is assuming she is going to leave really that controversial?

the church is no place for someone who is gay.

what fun is celibacy? i hope she leaves for her own sake. god will follow her wherever she goes.

we are getting together at the house for new years. my brother is flying in from nebraska and we will play cards together as we always do.


Then what are you worried about?
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
_MrStakhanovite
_Emeritus
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Re: reasons for leaving the church

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

Lizard Jew wrote:what i worry about is that a conversation has two ways.

if i just sit there and nod and say nothing it will look like I'm not listening.

i feel like i should have something smart to say back to her.

so i asked here for help.



You need to learn some active listening.

Ask here to elaborate on something, makes comments along the lines of “Oh wow…sounds like you were pretty disappointed to find that out” and the like. There is so much complexity and ambiguity, that to gloss over the issues with something that FAIR wrote would be disastrous.
_LDSToronto
_Emeritus
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Re: reasons for leaving the church

Post by _LDSToronto »

I can't tell which way Lizard Jew will go, but let me reveal a small part of a personal story.

When my wife and I told my wife's family that we were leaving the church, our news was met three different ways:

1. Love and support - two of my wife's siblings are inactive for similar reasons to us. They were supportive and understood where we were coming from. My wife's second youngest brother is still active, and he called and talked and was compassionate and acknowledged that we had made this choice after much thought. He did not try to change our mind, he simply offered respect and love.

2. Denial, some support, ignore - My wife's parents were upset, understandably. They argued for a bit, but in the end acknowledged we could make our own decisions. Since we've 'come out' they have decided not to even broach the subject and to blissfully ignore the fact that we are inactive.

3. Argue and defend - My wife's oldest brother took the stance that we are wrong for making this decision. He called my wife and argued with her for two hours, told her that she hadn't prayed enough, had never really understood the church, had never really had a testimony... all the pat answers. He never once tried to understand where we were coming from, and only wanted to show us how incorrect we are. A few weeks ago, he spend another couple of hours telling us the same thing. This time, however, we told him enough was enough, and told him that we would not speak to him again nor would we see him or his family again, until he smartened up and did some reading. To date, this brother-in-law is the only person I've actively engaged in argumentation on the issues because of his behaviour.

Lizard Jew, your sister's decisions are her decisions. Gay, straight, apostate, no matter. If you decide to judge her, you'll lose her.

H.
"Others cannot endure their own littleness unless they can translate it into meaningfulness on the largest possible level."
~ Ernest Becker
"Whether you think of it as heavenly or as earthly, if you love life immortality is no consolation for death."
~ Simone de Beauvoir
_moksha
_Emeritus
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Re: reasons for leaving the church

Post by _moksha »

Lizard Jew wrote:
beastie wrote:Reason for leaving the church:

It isn't true.

that doesn't help me.


Your sister's reasons will never be your own. If you want to say something positive about the Church, reminder her that the Church is capable of doing much good. Right now she needs a kind ear. If you disagree with what she says, then try not to touch it or laugh at it. Stakanovite's advice was right on.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
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