why me wrote:The question eventually comes down to the Book of Mormon. Is it true or not? And did the witnesses tell the truth about what they saw and felt with their hands. All else comes second to those questions.
Hi Why Me,
I have heard this over and over throughout my years in the Church but I don't really think it holds water. The Book of Mormon/Witnesses simply cannot be the "key" to the truthfulness of the claims of the modern LDS Church's overarching truth claims. There are a couple of reasons I say this. First, many branches of Mormonism exist and all claim the Book of Mormon/Witnesses are true: Bickertonites, Strangites, etc.. If we use the Book of Mormon/witnesses as the litmus test, then all of these branches of Mormonism are just as true as any other. Second, what is to say Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, or other leaders didn't go astray? This is completely separate from the Book of Mormon question.
I haven't read through this whole thread and so apologize if someone has expressed the above sentiments already.
It is really quite simply a waste of time to argue with someone like a Whyme. Here we have someone who attends nominally, who has been skirting the outer edge of activity in the Church for most if not all his adult life, who claims aliegence to Catholicism as well, who defends the church with arguments that frankly sound like a simpleton is uttering them and he wants to tell others how they should and should not behave in their activity to the Church? Really?
Now listen, I would not have any issue with how Whyme approaches his church and spiritual life if he were not so sanctimoniously pious in his approach to others here. Certainly I am not orthodox in my own LDS walk. I am fine with how Whyme lives so long as he does not lecture me on what I should or should not be doing in my Church life. And I would not even mind him sharing some opinions and views If he could do without the condescending attitude he displays. Add to that his nonsense that certain things that many long time active LDS here complain about having personal issues with based on the way the Church teaches are really just the individuals fault due to misunderstanding or actually believing what leaders say, and well, he just loses all credibility.
It is best to usually ignore such nonesense, but not easy to do.
café crema wrote: You might have a point if what you say here about the posters you addressed on CAf was accurate, but it is not. You told Catholics to focus on the foibles of the Catholic church in discussions comparing doctrine, a perfectly legitimate subject for discussion. You also admonished posters when they were defending against mocking by LDS posters such as Diana and Zerinus (among many others), you endlessly accused the Catholic church while excusing the LDS church. MY point is you have always behaved in the same manner as those you complain about. You are a hypocrite.
You must be dreaming or having nightmares. Most of my posts were defending the LDS church against catholic taliban infidels. I never admonished diana or zerinus who by the way were banned by the taliban.
But for many of the catholic taliban I did tell them to see the skeletons in the catholic closet before bashing the LDS church. And I did make some comparisons. But for most of the posts which numbered close to 5000 were in defense of the LDS church and fielding personal insults from the taliban. Which by the way was permited by the mods. But heaven forbid if the LDS did it. Gone for sure.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Patriarchal gripe wrote: PROPHETS:Speakers of Advice!
Yes, they do give advice during general conference or in the magazines. What would you call it?
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
I have heard this over and over throughout my years in the Church but I don't really think it holds water. The Book of Mormon/Witnesses simply cannot be the "key" to the truthfulness of the claims of the modern LDS Church's overarching truth claims.
Seth
We need to understand the reasons for the witnesses. They were to prove to the world of the truthfulness of Joseph Smith's claims. Nothing more. And in this, they have done a good job. If they did not exist, the Book of Mormon would have problems. It would be just one man's word on the subject and that would not convince many. The witnesses give some backbone to the Book of Mormon truth claims. And the way they never gave up their testimonies speaks a great deal in favor for the Book of Mormon.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
beastie wrote:I've often wondered about these odd ducks, these folks who are basically inactive from the LDS church but vociferously defend it on the internet. Do they imagine that their internet defenses of the faith will somehow negate the condemnation they will be under for being lukewarm, worthy of being spewed?
.
No. I would guess that most just cannot tolerate the abuse the LDS church takes on the internet. Also, members are inactive for many reasons. And some are personal. For me, I just don't want to be apart of the calling system. I am too lazy.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
café crema wrote: I called you on the same thing when you claimed to be a lector in the Catholic church you supposedly attended. You (supposedly, I don't believe you and officially call you a liar on this) presented a false face of being a wonderful believing Catholic, standing up in front of the whole church giving readings as though you believed. How are you any better than those you condemn?
Many called me a liar on the taliban forum. I was amazed just how judgemental the catholics were. I took it as an internet personality but still very uncatholic. I defend the Mormon church. Nothing more. And this is something that you can never accept. However, when I listened to religion on the line from wabc radio in new york, the catholic deacon who cohosts the show defended the LDS church against the pastor who claimed that Mormons were not christian. And so, I am in good company...with the true open minded catholics who are not talibans.
By calling me a liar on the forum over and over again, you demonstrated your talibanisms among all the others who did so. You should go to confession and confess your judgementalism.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
To get back to the topic: hopefully, consig can also talk about positive things he sees in the Mormon church with his daughter. And there are many positive things. Maybe he can have his daughter listen to the podcast from mormonstories and blacks and the priesthood. I think that this may help.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Jason Bourne wrote:It is really quite simply a waste of time to argue with someone like a Whyme. Here we have someone who attends nominally, who has been skirting the outer edge of activity in the Church for most if not all his adult life,.
And this is the key jason for many former active Mormons. I also know that many as active Mormons would sit in judgement of me and my inactivity. That is basically the kind of Mormons they were when they were active.
I had this feeling on the postmormon site. The small clan which was posting at that time could not accept my inactivity. They attacked me for it. I found it amazing that such people would do so. But then I began to understand that these people may have been extremely judgemental Mormons when they were active in the church. The kind of members who would have found me wanting because of my inactivity. And I also thought that some were just a little jealous of my inactivity.
I find this kind of judgemental person in the sunday school that I attend. There is a taliban Mormon teaching that class and we have clashed at times in class. But he seems very judgemental too of my position in the church. I would think that he is heading for a fall someday and he will be posting here still having no tolerance for less active Mormons.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith