Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah and Korash ...Really?

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_BrianH
_Emeritus
Posts: 171
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:59 pm

Re: Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah and Korash ...Really?

Post by _BrianH »

Brian, let's start with this question -

What is the contextual setting for the Book of Abraham? Is it situated against an Egyptian cultural backdrop?

Simple question. Go.

H.


I will answer your question if you will answer the original question posed here in this thread.

First my answer: Your question begins with the mere assumption that there ever WAS a "Book of Abraham" to begin with! But it is that very assumption that is ultimately in question here and as such your question requires us to commit the fallacy of circular reasoning. But even a minimal familiarity with the document in question (as well as the controversy created by Mormons surrounding the document) will inform you that the universally recognized "Breathing Permit" and other papyrus documents from which Joseph Smith claimed to have translated the "Book of Abraham", is, in fact, a portion of the Book of Breathings, which in turn is a portion of the Egyptian mythological religion documented in the well-known Egyptian "Book of the Dead". The original document records the ritual embalming of the deceased person named on the "permit" according to the tenets of the Egyptian religion and when competed was believed to confer upon the deceased the rights and magical powers to transit various stations in the afterlife. Both the Book of Breathings and the larger Book of the Dead are among the most well-known and easily recognized documents in all of Egyptian antiquity. Thus, the document itself most certainly IS a well known and even a very important portion of the Egyptian religion.

Whether it is also somehow the "Book of Abraham" remains the ultimate question here and leads me back to the original question I have been asking you here and which you have avoided thus far. So here, yet again, I ask you: Why should a reasonable person believe that this document IS the so-called "Book of Abraham" as you claim and specifically, regarding the portion of the papyrus being addressed here, why should someone believe that Smith actually DID translate the papyrus correctly when he identified the canopic idols (supposedly in a revelation from God) as "Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah and Korash"? Where is the evidence to support your answer?

thank you

-BH

.
_BrianH
_Emeritus
Posts: 171
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:59 pm

Re: Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah and Korash ...Really?

Post by _BrianH »

BH>>Perhaps you have lost track of the facts here H. YOU are the one challenging the established scholarly consensus, thus YOU are the one who bears the burden of proof, and you have not even tried to meet that standard.

LDST> That is a false statement. I haven't challenged the established scholarly consensus. In fact, I've agreed that both the scholar's and Smith could be correct.


Total and complete nonsense. Son ...you need to get familiar with the basics here. You are claiming that this document was the "Book of Abraham", while the universal consensus of all qualified expertise (outside the LDS church where even some LDS Egyptologists support the conventional assessment) is that this document is simply another example of one of the most well known documents in all of Egyptian antiquity: a portion of the Book of Breathings. THAT is the established FACT everywhere EXCEPT in the LDS church. I challenge here and now to support your claim that you are NOT challenging the established scholarly consensus, since NOT ONE qualified scholar has ever allowed that Smith got any portion of his supposedly miraculous translation correct.

I'd point out that you have yet to actually cite any scholarly work - how do I know you aren't lying about this whole thing?

You are just going to have to begin to familiarize yourself with at least the basics of the controversy created by your own organization, T. I am not going to spoon feed you the fundamentals here. There is exactly no controversy on the proper identification and translation of a common "Breathing Permit" in the Egyptological world. The ONLY people who do not accept the normative scholarship that is so easily found anywhere in any book on Egyptian mythology are Mormons.

-BH

.
_LDSToronto
_Emeritus
Posts: 2515
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:11 am

Re: Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah and Korash ...Really?

Post by _LDSToronto »

BrianH wrote:
Brian, let's start with this question -

What is the contextual setting for the Book of Abraham? Is it situated against an Egyptian cultural backdrop?

Simple question. Go.

H.


I will answer your question if you will answer the original question posed here in this thread.

First my answer: Your question begins with the mere assumption that there ever WAS a "Book of Abraham" to begin with! But it is that very assumption that is ultimately in question here and as such your question requires us to commit the fallacy of circular reasoning. But even a minimal familiarity with the document in question (as well as the controversy created by Mormons surrounding the document) will inform you that the universally recognized "Breathing Permit" and other papyrus documents from which Joseph Smith claimed to have translated the "Book of Abraham", is, in fact, a portion of the Book of Breathings, which in turn is a portion of the Egyptian mythological religion documented in the well-known Egyptian "Book of the Dead". The original document records the ritual embalming of the deceased person named on the "permit" according to the tenets of the Egyptian religion and when competed was believed to confer upon the deceased the rights and magical powers to transit various stations in the afterlife. Both the Book of Breathings and the larger Book of the Dead are among the most well-known and easily recognized documents in all of Egyptian antiquity. Thus, the document itself most certainly IS a well known and even a very important portion of the Egyptian religion.


Is it your assertion that the piece of literature known as the Book of Abraham, as published in The Pearl of Great Price, by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, takes place against an Egyptian cultural back drop?

Your answer to this question is important. You see, you can refute the origin of the Book of Abraham, but you can't deny it's existence as a piece of literature, at the very least.

So, have I got it right - You believe that the Book of Abraham takes place and an Egyptian cultural context and placement is evident?

BrianH wrote:Whether it is also somehow the "Book of Abraham" remains the ultimate question here and leads me back to the original question I have been asking you here and which you have avoided thus far.


Bad boy! I am currently holding a copy of the Book of Abraham in my hands. It exists.

H.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Others cannot endure their own littleness unless they can translate it into meaningfulness on the largest possible level."
~ Ernest Becker
"Whether you think of it as heavenly or as earthly, if you love life immortality is no consolation for death."
~ Simone de Beauvoir
_LDSToronto
_Emeritus
Posts: 2515
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:11 am

Re: Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah and Korash ...Really?

Post by _LDSToronto »

BrianH wrote:
BH>>Perhaps you have lost track of the facts here H. YOU are the one challenging the established scholarly consensus, thus YOU are the one who bears the burden of proof, and you have not even tried to meet that standard.

LDST> That is a false statement. I haven't challenged the established scholarly consensus. In fact, I've agreed that both the scholar's and Smith could be correct.


Total and complete nonsense. Son ...you need to get familiar with the basics here. You are claiming that this document was the "Book of Abraham", while the universal consensus of all qualified expertise (outside the LDS church where even some LDS Egyptologists support the conventional assessment) is that this document is simply another example of one of the most well known documents in all of Egyptian antiquity: a portion of the Book of Breathings. THAT is the established FACT everywhere EXCEPT in the LDS church. I challenge here and now to support your claim that you are NOT challenging the established scholarly consensus, since NOT ONE qualified scholar has ever allowed that Smith got any portion of his supposedly miraculous translation correct.


Writing in CAPITAL LETTERS doesn't make you RIGHT. But no matter. Just as you do, I believe scholars have translated the Egyptian hieroglyphs on the papyri correctly. I also allow for an inspired translation that is different from the scholarly interpretation. You haven't provided me with a sound reason to reject an inspired translation.

FOR THE RECORD. WE AGREE - THE TWO TRANSLATIONS ARE DIFFERENT. WE AGREE - SCHOLARS HAVE A CORRECT TRANSLATIONS SO FAR AS THEIR FIELD(S) OF STUDY VALIDATE THE CORRECTNESS OF TRANSLATION.

Allowing for additional knowledge in no way challenges the body of scholarship (you know, the body of SCHOLARSHIP with which we are imminently about to show how exceedingly UNFAMILIAR YOU ARE?)

BrianH wrote:You are just going to have to begin to familiarize yourself with at least the basics of the controversy created by your own organization, T. I am not going to spoon feed you the fundamentals here.


I'm not asking you to spoon feed me. But I will have to insist that every time you treat something as fact, you either:
1. Tell me your qualifications that support your fact (i.e. I, BrianH, am PhD Egyptologist, and can read the papyri)
2. Cite the relevant source (APA, MLA, Chicago, I don't care, just cite the relevant work)

Else, I will claim that you are lying or twisting facts. You don't have enough of a reputation around here be taken for your word.

H.
"Others cannot endure their own littleness unless they can translate it into meaningfulness on the largest possible level."
~ Ernest Becker
"Whether you think of it as heavenly or as earthly, if you love life immortality is no consolation for death."
~ Simone de Beauvoir
_BrianH
_Emeritus
Posts: 171
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:59 pm

Re: Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah and Korash ...Really?

Post by _BrianH »

Writing in CAPITAL LETTERS doesn't make you RIGHT.


Did I say it did?

But no matter. Just as you do, I believe scholars have translated the Egyptian hieroglyphs on the papyri correctly. I also allow for an inspired translation that is different from the scholarly interpretation. You haven't provided me with a sound reason to reject an inspired translation.


Please explain why YOU actually "allowing" for your own beliefs is supposed to amount to an explanation of why anyone should think those beliefs are TRUE.

FOR THE RECORD. WE AGREE - THE TWO TRANSLATIONS ARE DIFFERENT. WE AGREE - SCHOLARS HAVE A CORRECT TRANSLATIONS SO FAR AS THEIR FIELD(S) OF STUDY VALIDATE THE CORRECTNESS OF TRANSLATION.

Therefore we can only agree that Smith's translation was WRONG ...unless, of course, you can simply show us some reasons to think he was right ...a challenge you have evaded thus far.

Allowing for additional knowledge in no way challenges the body of scholarship (you know, the body of SCHOLARSHIP with which we are imminently about to show how exceedingly UNFAMILIAR YOU ARE?)


You have not shown that this alleged "additional knowledge" corresponds to reality. In fact, you have yet to even TRY.

BH>>You are just going to have to begin to familiarize yourself with at least the basics of the controversy created by your own organization, T. I am not going to spoon feed you the fundamentals here.


LDST>I'm not asking you to spoon feed me. But I will have to insist that every time you treat something as fact, you either:
1. Tell me your qualifications that support your fact (i.e. I, BrianH, am PhD Egyptologist, and can read the papyri)
2. Cite the relevant source (APA, MLA, Chicago, I don't care, just cite the relevant work)

Else, I will claim that you are lying or twisting facts. You don't have enough of a reputation around here be taken for your word.


Why is it that I have to cite sources and you do not. You are the one challenging the established consensus, T. There are no experts outside your obscure little cult who accept that the papyrus in question really IS the "Book of Abraham" and no one inside your organization has ever provided any reason to think that it IS.

Furthermore, I am not making any claims that are not common knowledge throughout this forum and even in the distorted versions of these facts represented in your own organizations apologetic literature ....and you know it. And if you do NOT know that, you are simply uninformed.

More to the point though, as you continue to try to do what Mormons are mentally conditioned to do (shift the burden of proof), it remains obvious that you have yet to even TRY to answer the fundamental challenge posted at the beginning of this thread: Why should anyone think that Smith translated the Book of Abraham correctly? In particular and as an example of this fundamental question I am asking you to please explain why we should think that Smith's identification of the universally recognized "Sons of Horus" (some very important mythological figures) as Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah and Korash is correct.

Why do you refuse to answer this question? It ...IS the fundamental issue of this debate. Why are you consistently ignoring it every time I ask it?

-BH

.
Last edited by Guest on Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
_BrianH
_Emeritus
Posts: 171
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:59 pm

Re: Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah and Korash ...Really?

Post by _BrianH »

I note with interest that I answered your question, but you totally ignored mine. Why is it that you will not respond to my challenge to simply provide some evidence and reasons that will support the claims of your organization? Why can you not even TRY to answer my questions?

Could it be that you ignore the fundamental question of this thread every time I ask it because you yourself recognize that you have no answer?

BH>>I will answer your question if you will answer the original question posed here in this thread.

First my answer: Your question begins with the mere assumption that there ever WAS a "Book of Abraham" to begin with! But it is that very assumption that is ultimately in question here and as such your question requires us to commit the fallacy of circular reasoning. But even a minimal familiarity with the document in question (as well as the controversy created by Mormons surrounding the document) will inform you that the universally recognized "Breathing Permit" and other papyrus documents from which Joseph Smith claimed to have translated the "Book of Abraham", is, in fact, a portion of the Book of Breathings, which in turn is a portion of the Egyptian mythological religion documented in the well-known Egyptian "Book of the Dead". The original document records the ritual embalming of the deceased person named on the "permit" according to the tenets of the Egyptian religion and when competed was believed to confer upon the deceased the rights and magical powers to transit various stations in the afterlife. Both the Book of Breathings and the larger Book of the Dead are among the most well-known and easily recognized documents in all of Egyptian antiquity. Thus, the document itself most certainly IS a well known and even a very important portion of the Egyptian religion.

LDST>Is it your assertion that the piece of literature known as the Book of Abraham, as published in The Pearl of Great Price, by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, takes place against an Egyptian cultural back drop?

Your answer to this question is important. You see, you can refute the origin of the Book of Abraham, but you can't deny it's existence as a piece of literature, at the very least.


You continue to miss the whole point here, T. The original document we are discussing most certainly exists. There is no disputing that. The FACT is, the original document that no doubt exists is universally recognized (outside the LDS church and even by most Mormons INCLUDING YOU) as a pagan "Breathing Permit" associated with the mythological religion of Egypt. The problem is, you CLAIM, but have not shown any actual reasons to think that this papyrus really IS "the Book of Abraham", or any portion of it. We have every necessary and sufficient to know that it is, in fact, just another "Breathing Permit" - one of many that have been recovered from Egyptian archaeological sites. The example we are considering is the four canopic idols your "prophet" identified as Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah and Korash in his "Book of Abraham" translation. But ...so far you have not shown us any reasons to believe your claim that he was RIGHT. In fact you have consistently ignored my many direct requests that you begin to get in the game here and actually provide us with some evidence in support of your claim.

So, have I got it right - You believe that the Book of Abraham takes place and an Egyptian cultural context and placement is evident?

No ...you do not have it right at all. What emerges from an Egyptian cultural context on this Egyptian papyrus is a "breathing permit", NOT the so-called "Book of Abraham". We still have seen exactly no evidence or reasoning whatsoever to indicate that this papyrus containing a common BREATHING PERMIT somehow really does ALSO contain some supposed "additional knowledge" representing some portion of what Mormons alone imagine is "the Book of Abraham" in this scroll. In particular, we have yet to see you provide any reason to think that the names of the idols in question in any way include the names that Smith gave them, while claiming to have received these names as part of his supposed "revelation from God".

BH>>Whether it is also somehow the "Book of Abraham" remains the ultimate question here and leads me back to the original question I have been asking you here and which you have avoided thus far.

LDST>Bad boy! I am currently holding a copy of the Book of Abraham in my hands. It exists.


You are the bad boy here, H-man. You keep avoiding the issue. And you apparently need to learn to read English. If you do, you should be able to grasp the fact that I am not disputing that the so-called "Book of Abraham" exists. The question HERE in this debate, the question you consistently refuse to even attempt to answer is, WHY should we think this "Book of Abraham" was correctly translated from what is otherwise universally recognized as nothing more than just another example of a common "breathing permit" derived from the funeral practices found in the religious rituals of 1st century AD Egyptians. In particular (and as an example), why should we think that Smith identified the canopic idols correctly?

I keep asking you and you keep ignoring the question.

Does it not bother you that you have to run from such simple, obvious questions as you have been doing???

-BH

.
_Darth J
_Emeritus
Posts: 13392
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:16 am

Re: Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah and Korash ...Really?

Post by _Darth J »

The fundamental problem here is putting faith in scholarly "theories," which are constantly changing.

For example, paleontologists used to think that brachiosaurus spent most of its time underwater and used nostrils on top of its head like a snorkel to breathe. Eventually, it was determined that such a theory was ridiculous: considering the length of brachiosaurus' neck, the water pressure from the depth at which this sauropod would have to be would have crushed its lungs.

Then there is the whole issue of whether brachiosaurus held its head upright or horizontally, since it would have to have an extremely powerful heart to pump blood 40 feet or so vertically up to its head. They don't even know for sure.

So we see that science changes all the time. Just because Egyptologists have their theories today about what the written language of the ancient Egyptians means doesn't mean that they will not change their minds about it in the future.
_BrianH
_Emeritus
Posts: 171
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:59 pm

Re: Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah and Korash ...Really?

Post by _BrianH »

Darth J wrote:The fundamental problem here is putting faith in scholarly "theories," which are constantly changing.


Theories become facts when substantiated with evidence. The real problem here is Mormons putting faith in claims that cannot be shown to be connected to reality by facts.

For example, paleontologists used to think that brachiosaurus spent most of its time underwater and used nostrils on top of its head like a snorkel to breathe. Eventually, it was determined that such a theory was ridiculous: considering the length of brachiosaurus' neck, the water pressure from the depth at which this sauropod would have to be would have crushed its lungs.

Then there is the whole issue of whether brachiosaurus held its head upright or horizontally, since it would have to have an extremely powerful heart to pump blood 40 feet or so vertically up to its head. They don't even know for sure.

So we see that science changes all the time. Just because Egyptologists have their theories today about what the written language of the ancient Egyptians means doesn't mean that they will not change their minds about it in the future.


Proper scholarship rightly changes its conclusions in response to new evidence. So go ahead and support your claims. I am sure the entire archaeological sits poised on the edge of their chairs, just eager to adjust their conclusions to accommodate the "revelations" of your "prophet". Here's your chance. I can even get you a book deal and that might lead to great impact on the world for your religion. SO ...Can you or can you not provide us with any evidence reasons to think that your so-called "prophet" correctly identified the universally recognized sons of Horus (very important characters in Egyptian mythology, by the way) when he said their names were Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah and Korash?

-BH

.
_Darth J
_Emeritus
Posts: 13392
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:16 am

Re: Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah and Korash ...Really?

Post by _Darth J »

The truth of these things are known by the Spirit. So if the Spirit tells us that something is true, we know that academic theories are just the ideas of men that are subject to change.
_Corpsegrinder
_Emeritus
Posts: 615
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:33 pm

Re: Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah and Korash ...Really?

Post by _Corpsegrinder »

BrianH wrote:Theories become facts when substantiated with evidence.

Well, that’s a nice theory. Unfortunately, the “evidence” you speak of can only be perceived with the imperfect and unreliable senses that are embodied in our mortal tabernacles. Ultimately, the truthfulness of the Book of Abraham can only be discerned through our spiritual eyes, with the Holy Ghost as our guide and constant companion.

Your fervent denials of the plain and precious truths of the Book of Abraham are symptomatic of your estrangement from the Holy Ghost.
Post Reply