A Counter-Plea for 2012

[_honorentheos]

There is no sarcasm or irony intended in this post.

I enjoy this board most when it's a place for the free-exchange of ideas. If 2011 has left any legacy I would love to see reduced this coming year, it's the impact of unwarranted pretentiousness on the multi-story richness of the discussion. The result isn't the removal of valueless banter or diatribes. The result has been the loss of the middle-story discussions where people with limited levels of knowledge or understanding seem to be overly concerned that they aren't qualified to participate in a discussion in a meaningful way.

I think of when I first came to the boards. True intellectuals such as Tarski, Gadianton, Blixa, and Kishkumen always seemed willing to engage a person in a discussion at the level of the other's understanding while findings ways to elevate it higher. While it's clear they tower intellectually over most of us, it is rare to feel they wish to overshadow anyone as much as help raise the discussion up to a higher level.

Even when I've disagreed with a thought by any of the above, I've always felt the discussion was enriching. My hats off to all four of you.

Also, 2011 has left me even more impressed with Dr. Shades who seems supernaturally immune to peer-pressure and opinion in his aim to provide a truly free-speech environment.

May 2012 be the year of Tarski, Shades, Kish, Blixa, and Gad.

[_Tarski]

There is no sarcasm or irony intended in this post.

I enjoy this board most when it's a place for the free-exchange of ideas. If 2011 has left any legacy I would love to see reduced this coming year, it's the impact of unwarranted pretentiousness on the multi-story richness of the discussion. The result isn't the removal of valueless banter or diatribes. The result has been the loss of the middle-story discussions where people with limited levels of knowledge or understanding seem to be overly concerned that they aren't qualified to participate in a discussion in a meaningful way.

I think of when I first came to the boards. True intellectuals such as Tarski, Gadianton, Blixa, and Kishkumen always seemed willing to engage a person in a discussion at the level of the other's understanding while findings ways to elevate it higher. While it's clear they tower intellectually over most of us, it is rare to feel they wish to overshadow anyone as much as help raise the discussion up to a higher level.

Even when I've disagreed with a thought by any of the above, I've always felt the discussion was enriching. My hats off to all four of you.

Also, 2011 has left me even more impressed with Dr. Shades who seems supernaturally immune to peer-pressure and opinion in his aim to provide a truly free-speech environment.

May 2012 be the year of Tarski, Shades, Kish, Blixa, and Gad.

Oh this warms my heart but also makes me feel guilty. You see, I don't think I have been contributing up to my own intellectual standards for some time now. Have I become lazy or is it more like giving up?

My resolution will be to try to do better. Maybe the old Tarski will return.

[_Blixa]

Thanks, honor, I appreciate it. I'll try to live up to your undeserved praise and not succumb to temptation. LDSToronto recently said something important in the Celestial forum that I would like to repeat here:

None of us think it's cool to attack the LDS people.

The church and it's doctrine, history, policies and leadership, those are fair game. But critic, ex-mo, never-mo, and believers alike hold many LDS close to our hearts.

I find Mormon history and culture fascinating. I think its importance in Western American studies has never been fully explored by scholars. Although I am not a current believer, I respect and sympathize with the ambitions and sincerity of many of the early Mormon leaders and members. It is because of that respect that I think it imperative to critique its shortcomings as well as document its best attributes. And it is that "critical respect" that drives my criticism of "mopologetics:" a term which designates to me a body of apologia that is disingenuous, intellectually vapid and invested in histrionic ad hominem attack. Whether I believe in Mormonism or not, I think it deserves better than that.

[_Some Schmo]

I find Mormon history and culture fascinating. I think its importance in Western American studies has never been fully explored by scholars. Although I am not a current believer, I respect and sympathize with the ambitions and sincerity of many of the early Mormon leaders and members. It is because of that respect that I think it imperative to critique its shortcomings as well as document its best attributes. And it is that "critical respect" that drives my criticism of "mopologetics:" a term which designates to me a body of apologia that is disingenuous, intellectually vapid and invested in histrionic ad hominem attack. Whether I believe in Mormonism or not, I think it deserves better than that.

Sure... go ahead and prove honor's point, why don't you?

While I may not necessarily share your respect for its culture, I can't help but respect your sentiments here.

[_Blixa]

I find Mormon history and culture fascinating. I think its importance in Western American studies has never been fully explored by scholars. Although I am not a current believer, I respect and sympathize with the ambitions and sincerity of many of the early Mormon leaders and members. It is because of that respect that I think it imperative to critique its shortcomings as well as document its best attributes. And it is that "critical respect" that drives my criticism of "mopologetics:" a term which designates to me a body of apologia that is disingenuous, intellectually vapid and invested in histrionic ad hominem attack. Whether I believe in Mormonism or not, I think it deserves better than that.

Sure... go ahead and prove honor's point, why don't you?

While I may not necessarily share your respect for its culture, I can't help but respect your sentiments here.

"Culture" covers a lot, Schmo. I suspect you and I could find something to agree on in that vast category...

[_Some Schmo]

While I may not necessarily share your respect for its culture, I can't help but respect your sentiments here.

"Culture" covers a lot, Schmo. I suspect you and I could find something to agree on in that vast category...

True. I suppose what I meant was that we don't share the same amount of respect for it.

[_Blixa]

"Culture" covers a lot, Schmo. I suspect you and I could find something to agree on in that vast category...

True. I suppose what I meant was that we don't share the same amount of respect for it.

Well, that I can buy.

[_honorentheos]

Maybe the old Tarski will return.

For what it's worth, you've always been one of my favorite posters from MAD to here. Your willingness to break down difficult scientific and mathmatical issues into easier bite-size pieces has been a real treat.

[_honorentheos]

Thanks, honor, I appreciate it.

Well deserved and your very welcome.

None of us think it's cool to attack the LDS people.

The church and it's doctrine, history, policies and leadership, those are fair game. But critic, ex-mo, never-mo, and believers alike hold many LDS close to our hearts.

I find Mormon history and culture fascinating. I think its importance in Western American studies has never been fully explored by scholars. Although I am not a current believer, I respect and sympathize with the ambitions and sincerity of many of the early Mormon leaders and members. It is because of that respect that I think it imperative to critique its shortcomings as well as document its best attributes. And it is that "critical respect" that drives my criticism of "mopologetics:" a term which designates to me a body of apologia that is disingenuous, intellectually vapid and invested in histrionic ad hominem attack. Whether I believe in Mormonism or not, I think it deserves better than that.

Good thoughts. That LDST, next thing you know he'll be convincing us that Canada has better beer, too.

;)

[_LDSToronto]

Good thoughts. That LDST, next thing you know he'll be convincing us that Canada has better beer, too.

;)

I can tell no lie.

H.