Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah and Korash ...Really?

[_BrianH]

Again, I fully understand what you think Smith did. The challenge you and your fellow Mormons have yet to even attempt to meet is the challenge to simply show us WHY anyone else should believe what Mormons are told to take on "faith".

If you are going to discount faith and the supernatural gifts of god as a component of an answer, then you are being disingenuous because you assumed, in another thread about Jesus Christ, Christ'S DIVINITY! And the only way you can know this is by faith!

Why are you allowed to exercise faith and deny it to others at the same time?

H.

First of all I do not doubt or discount the reality of supernatural gifts. But I see no evidence that there was any supernatural gift at work in Smith's translation of a copy of the Book of Breathings into the "Book of Momron". Nor have you even tried to show me any reason to think that there was any such gift at work.

Secondly, I do not discount faith at all. But my faith must be earned and I see no reason to place any faith in Smith at all. In fact, I have abundant reason to conclude that the man was a total fraud.

Thirdly, I nowhere asserted or even hinted that the only way one can know Christ's divinity is by faith. That is just another one of your straw man fallacies.

Finally, I challenge you to support your accusation and show me where I denied anyone the right to exercise their faith. ...And don't worry. I do not really expect you to answer that challenge by actually supporting your accusation. You are a Mormon and we both know that you just say things sometimes when you yourself know you cannot support them. And you need to make lame accusations like that to try to continue hiding your inability to answer the challenge that has you so flumoxed that you can even post dozens of responses without even ONCE at least TRYING to answer it.

-BH

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[_Corpsegrinder]

Happy new year, Brian.

[_SteelHead]

First of all I do not doubt or discount the reality of supernatural gifts. But I see no evidence that there was any supernatural gift at work in Smith's translation of a copy of the Book of Breathings into the "Book of Momron". Nor have you even tried to show me any reason to think that there was any such gift at work.

Brian, Methinks you are getting your translated works confused. The Book of Mormon was translated from plates, the Book of Abraham from papyri ie the Book of Breathings.

Do try to keep your miraculously translated ancient records straight.

[_BrianH]

First of all I do not doubt or discount the reality of supernatural gifts. But I see no evidence that there was any supernatural gift at work in Smith's translation of a copy of the Book of Breathings into the "Book of Momron". Nor have you even tried to show me any reason to think that there was any such gift at work.

Brian, Methinks you are getting your translated works confused. The Book of Mormon was translated from plates, the Book of Abraham from papyri ie the Book of Breathings.

Do try to keep your miraculously translated ancient records straight.

Yeah ....sorry. It was late.

Book of Abraham not Book of Mormon.

-BH

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[_honorentheos]

Okay so then you do NOT think that Smith was correct?

Which is it?

-BH

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As a nonbeliever, I think I could take your argument about the names of Egyptian Gods and with a little rearranging make the same case against the Book of Genesis.

Of course, I personally don't buy that, (speaking about faith-over-scientific explainations for the origin of the Book of Abraham) but I think its no different than a biblical literalist arguing for a literal resurrection of Christ or that Adam and Eve really were the first human beings.

Science, friend BH: it's a two-edged sword and it cuts through your own beliefs both bone and sinew.

No, BrianH, I do not believe Joseph Smith translated the Book of Abraham via divine means whether a translation of the papyri or via revelation that only required the papyri as a catalyst.

[_honorentheos]

BrianH -

Happy New Year, by the way.

In reading through your response to LDST, this line jumped out at me for it's obvious prejudice -

You are a Mormon and we both know that you just say things sometimes when you yourself know you cannot support them.

You may be aware that bias is such a powerful force in a persons mind that it stains one's ability to accurately parse what they read, hear, see, etc., right? Exhibit A, in my opinion, is your failure to read the black and white where I'd told you multiple times what my own opinion was on Joseph Smith. Yet, even when I spelled it out, you asked "which is it?"

So maybe it's time to work on removing the bias filters and concentrating on the actual discussion at hand? It would be helpful if you took a step back and spent some time showing you actual understand what anyone has said to you so far.

Reading back through the thread, it's interesting to see how infrequently you actually even mention the other person's argument. In most instances, there was a dismissal and a reassertion that the person must provide some evidence that what the Book of Abraham contains match the modern translation of the papyri. Yet, when consig offered you just that, you dismissed his points by saying it had nothing to do with the four deity.

So far, you've refused to demonstrate how your own faith is any more secure than a believer in the Book of Abraham; refused to acknowledge any method of production that does not require a hieroglyph-for-word translation of the papyri; refused to respond to evidence that shows at least some correspondence between the interpretation of the hieroglyphs and the content of the Book of Abraham when it doesn't relate to the four deity in your OP title; and lastly not engaged Mike Reed in demonstrating your awareness of the current state of Book of Abraham apologetics or critical examination.

[_Wisdom Seeker]

When LDS people are as rude as those here have been, they will just have to take what they get.

Do you feel this way about others of different gender, race, creed and color also?

[_LDSToronto]

Finally, a breakthrough! We can now talk about the tools that are available for us to use in this debate. Indulge me, please - as I said earlier, this is a complex field to debate and I think we would be doing a great disservice if we didn't discuss these tools. See below:

First of all I do not doubt or discount the reality of supernatural gifts.

Would you mind elaborating? What leads you to believe that supernatural gifts exist?

But I see no evidence that there was any supernatural gift at work in Smith's translation of a copy of the Book of Breathings into the "Book of [Abraham]".

If you believe that supernatural gifts exist, it follows that there have been instances of the bestowal of supernatural gifts on human beings. It also follows that you believe that there are human beings that have in the past, or currently do, exercise supernatural gifts.

Yet you reject the claim that Joseph Smith used a supernatural gift to translate the Egyptian papyri into the Book of Abraham. Furthermore, you reject this claim, stating you see no evidence that Smith had such a supernatural gift.

Is it a fair conclusion that your belief in the existence of supernatural gifts is based solely on observable evidence? Can you give an example of an event that led you to believe that the event was caused by the exercising of supernatural gifts, and can you please describe the evidence that led you to conclude that the best explanation for that event was the exercising of a supernatural gift by a human being?

Nor have you even tried to show me any reason to think that there was any such gift at work.

I would like to use the same tools and procedures that you use to discern supernatural gifts to show that such a supernatural gift was possibly at work when Joseph translated the Egyptian papyri. That is why I think this post is pivotal in our discussion.

Secondly, I do not discount faith at all.

How do you define faith? Do you accept the definition found in Hebrews 11:1 - "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."?

But my faith must be earned and I see no reason to place any faith in Smith at all. In fact, I have abundant reason to conclude that the man was a total fraud.

In what do you have faith, and how has that faith been earned? Are you talking about "the evidence of things not seen"? What unseen things do you have faith in and what evidence was given?

Thirdly, I nowhere asserted or even hinted that the only way one can know Christ's divinity is by faith. That is just another one of your straw man fallacies.

I acknowledge that one can attain information of Christ's supposed divinity by reading scripture and other books about Christ. Such is not the same as acquiring a sure knowledge of Christ's actual divinity. How, besides faith, have you come to gain knowledge of Christ's actual divinity?

Finally, I challenge you to support your accusation and show me where I denied anyone the right to exercise their faith. ...And don't worry. I do not really expect you to answer that challenge by actually supporting your accusation.

You have, throughout this thread said things like:

"The challenge you are continuing to avoid was simply to offer some substantiation to the claims you have been told to accept on "faith". For my part, I have no reason whatsoever to place any faith in Joseph Smith or his organization."

"Your dishonesty and evasions make it clear that you think you can fool me with such transparent trickery. Its like watching a 9-year old kid doing a dime store magic trick and getting all pissy when the big kids in the room point out that they know how he did it."

"simply restating what the LDS organization has told you to "think" is not the same thing as offering a reasoned explanation of WHY we should conclude that what you have been told to "think" is actually TRUE."

In each of these, as well as the numerous other times when I've spoken of the possibility that Joseph had the gift of seership, you have rejected claims and asked for pure evidence-based defenses.

You are a Mormon and we both know that you just say things sometimes when you yourself know you cannot support them. And you need to make lame accusations like that to try to continue hiding your inability to answer the challenge that has you so flumoxed that you can even post dozens of responses without even ONCE at least TRYING to answer it.

I see you still have some homework to do. I'm glad we are having this discussion now because it opens up this debate to the use of tools that we can both use.

H.

[_BrianH]

Finally, a breakthrough! We can now talk about the tools that are available for us to use in this debate. Indulge me, please - as I said earlier, this is a complex field to debate and I think we would be doing a great disservice if we didn't discuss these tools.

There is nothing as complicated as you need here. In fact, its incredibly simple: In 1835, before the knowledge of Egyptian language and mythology was well-known, your "prophet", Joseph Smith, claimed to have translated a document that is now universally recognized among all qualified experts as "the Book of Breathings" - an Egyptian document from ~the 1st Century, AD into what he called "the Book of Abraham". He claimed the original papyrus was the "Book of Abraham". But nothing in the texts or imagery of the original document has been shown to relate to the content of the Book of Abraham, to the satisfaction of anyone who is not a Mormon accepting this claim on faith in Joseph Smith.

BH>>First of all I do not doubt or discount the reality of supernatural gifts.

LDST>Would you mind elaborating? What leads you to believe that supernatural gifts exist?

I have my reasons - none of which are gemain to the topic of this debate. Suffice it to say that I do not discount the reality of supernatural gifts. What I DO discount is the LDS claim that Joseph Smith used any such gift to translate the LDS "scriptures".

BH>>But I see no evidence that there was any supernatural gift at work in Smith's translation of a copy of the Book of Breathings into the "Book of [Abraham]".

LDST>If you believe that supernatural gifts exist, it follows that there have been instances of the bestowal of supernatural gifts on human beings. It also follows that you believe that there are human beings that have in the past, or currently do, exercise supernatural gifts.

Yet you reject the claim that Joseph Smith used a supernatural gift to translate the Egyptian papyri into the Book of Abraham. Furthermore, you reject this claim, stating you see no evidence that Smith had such a supernatural gift.

True. I do believe that there have been many instances of the bestowal of supernatural gifts. It does not follow that because there have been such bestowals that Smith was a recipient of such a blessing, any more than a similar belief requires you to conclude that Sun Myung Moon is a "prophet". The simple fact is no one has provided me with any reason to think that the alleged translation of a copy of the well-known "Book of Breathings" into a totally different book is the product of such a gift and there is abundant evidence that his alleged "translation" is a total fraud.

Is it a fair conclusion that your belief in the existence of supernatural gifts is based solely on observable evidence? Can you give an example of an event that led you to believe that the event was caused by the exercising of supernatural gifts, and can you please describe the evidence that led you to conclude that the best explanation for that event was the exercising of a supernatural gift by a human being?

I can, but I will not. This is not my first time at the races, H-man. I am all to aware of how Mormons create tangents to avoid the main question. I will not let you repeat that error. The question here is my challenge to you to show me some reason to conclude that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Abraham correctly and as a case in point, that he properly identified the canopic idol deities. If he did correctly identify these easily recognized Egyptian deities, then it should not be difficult to show me some reasons to think that he did. After all, we are only talking about a translation here. "Translation" of normal human languages does not require a divine revelation. People do it every day countless millions of times.

BH>>Nor have you even tried to show me any reason to think that there was any such gift at work.

LDST>I would like to use the same tools and procedures that you use to discern supernatural gifts to show that such a supernatural gift was possibly at work when Joseph translated the Egyptian papyri. That is why I think this post is pivotal in our discussion.

And you are wrong. The result of this alleged gift was nothing more complicated and was nothing that required an intervention by God. We are talking here about the simple matter of a translation - something that is performed by men and women every day you have ever lived several million times a day without the need for supernatural gifts. Even ancient Egyptian has been "decoded" into a coherent language for nearly 200 years and scholars all over the world are able to comprehend it. Sadly for the LDS church, not once has anyone confirmed Joseph Smith's alleged supernatural translation of the Book of Abraham, and its proper translation as a portion of the commonly known Book of Breathings is well-established.

BH>>Secondly, I do not discount faith at all.

How do you define faith? Do you accept the definition found in Hebrews 11:1 - "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."?

The word translated as "faith" in Hebrews 11 (and throughout the New Testament) is the Greek word πίστις - "pistis". It means "trust" or "conviction of truth" and is usually translated as "faith", "assurance" and "belief" in English Bibles. Such "faith" is EARNED, H-man. This is not my first time at the races. The simple fact is, I have no reason to trust that Joseph Smith was telling the truth, and every sufficient and necessary reason to conclude that he was a fraud.

BH>>But my faith must be earned and I see no reason to place any faith in Smith at all. In fact, I have abundant reason to conclude that the man was a total fraud.

LDST>In what do you have faith, and how has that faith been earned? Are you talking about "the evidence of things not seen"? What unseen things do you have faith in and what evidence was given?

Faith is earned in different ways. A man claiming to be a prophet earns my faith (trust) by telling the truth. A man who claims to have translated a document from a language he cannot even read earns my trust by getting his translation CORRECT. Unless you can finally get around to simply answering the original challenge of this thread -the challenge to show that Smith translated the Book of Abraham CORRECTLY, and as a case in point that he translated the names and identities of the four canopic jar idols in Fac. #1 of his "translation", any faith in his claims will remain unearned.

BH>>Thirdly, I nowhere asserted or even hinted that the only way one can know Christ's divinity is by faith. That is just another one of your straw man fallacies.

LDST>I acknowledge that one can attain information of Christ's supposed divinity by reading scripture and other books about Christ. Such is not the same as acquiring a sure knowledge of Christ's actual divinity. How, besides faith, have you come to gain knowledge of Christ's actual divinity?

Christ's divinity is not at issue here. Nor will I let you create the usual diversions and rabbit trails for which LDS have earned a justified but awful reputation. The issue here in this debate is the LDS claim that their "prophet" translated the Book of Abraham correctly by the gift and power of God. If that is true, then you should be able to show me that Smith did indeed CORRECTLY identify and translate this document and properly and correctly identify the subjects here: the four canpic jar deities appearing in your Book of Abraham.

BH>>Finally, I challenge you to support your accusation and show me where I denied anyone the right to exercise their faith. ...And don't worry. I do not really expect you to answer that challenge by actually supporting your accusation.

You have, throughout this thread said things like:

"The challenge you are continuing to avoid was simply to offer some substantiation to the claims you have been told to accept on "faith". For my part, I have no reason whatsoever to place any faith in Joseph Smith or his organization."

"Your dishonesty and evasions make it clear that you think you can fool me with such transparent trickery. Its like watching a 9-year old kid doing a dime store magic trick and getting all pissy when the big kids in the room point out that they know how he did it."

"simply restating what the LDS organization has told you to "think" is not the same thing as offering a reasoned explanation of WHY we should conclude that what you have been told to "think" is actually TRUE."

In each of these, as well as the numerous other times when I've spoken of the possibility that Joseph had the gift of seership, you have rejected claims and asked for pure evidence-based defenses.

You are joking right? You should be ashamed to have had to stoop to such desperate measures. Do you read English? Do I have to define the words I used for you? NOWHERE do any of your citations in any way state or even imply that I deny anyone the right to exercise their faith! Secondly, your conclusion here is a non-sequitur and a huge one at that. My rejecting your claims does not in any way even come close to denying you your right to believe anything you want. If you think it does, you clearly are totally divorced from reality or suffering a delusional persecution complex.

BH>>You are a Mormon and we both know that you just say things sometimes when you yourself know you cannot support them. And you need to make lame accusations like that to try to continue hiding your inability to answer the challenge that has you so flumoxed that you can even post dozens of responses without even ONCE at least TRYING to answer it.

LDST>I see you still have some homework to do. I'm glad we are having this discussion now because it opens up this debate to the use of tools that we can both use.

The tools for confirming the translation of a language are entirely linguistic. Given your failure to even try to answer the very simple and obvious, fundamental question of this debate it is evident that you are the one who needs to do some homework here. Even after dozens of posts, you have yet to even TRY To answerthis question. I once AGAIN challenge you to simply provide some evidence that will confirm that Joseph Smith, really did, CORRECTLY translate the Book of Breathings into the so-called "Book of Abraham" by showing that he correctly identified the universally recognized Sons of Horus by the names "Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah and Korash".

When are you going to stop ignoring the very first question that I asked - the same question I have asked you over a dozen times now?

-BH

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[_RockSlider]

Brian,

Please have the courtesy to read and answer to this thread:

You have a chance of establishing some credibility in this community if you would actually read that thread, noting the feelings and thoughts expressed there by INDIVIDUALS in full.

Of course if this is nothing more than a drive by shooting, of which your actions are like any Mormon missionary, you will once again be able to return and report; of the doors slammed in your face, the dogs release at your heals, with your valiant attempts seeming in vain, and yet a remaining love for those you have served here and the hope, always the hope that you have planted a seed that may someday sprout, in all the poor dim-witted Mormons you have touched today.