Joseph Antley's Apostasy from the Church

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_TrashcanMan79
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Re: Joseph Antley's Apostasy from the Church

Post by _TrashcanMan79 »

The Church and a Global Flood

(...just so those following along at home can fully appreciate just how complete and absolute is Joseph Antley's rejection of a doctrine of God's One True and Living Church, and of His prophets and His apostles, and of His Word as contained in Holy Writ...)
_sock puppet
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Re: Joseph Antley's Apostasy from the Church

Post by _sock puppet »

why me wrote:
MsJack wrote:All Mormons are cafeteria Mormons.

Some are just more self-aware of this fact than others.


Or they are all just Mormons as they were back in the day. The term cafeteria Mormon is a man-made label.

Earth to why me: all labels are man-made, even the terms Mormon and Catholic.

Cafeteria Mormon denotes a subset of Mormons, those that do not accept the 'whole enchilada' in lock-step to the Brethren.

So what's your point?
_sock puppet
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Re: Joseph Antley's Apostasy from the Church

Post by _sock puppet »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:I think it'd be interesting if Mr. Antley would list the Mormon doctrines he doesn't believe... Say, the top 25. Then list the top 25 doctrines with which he agrees. That might be helpful in order to understand his brand of skepticism.

Maybe a comprehensive list of Mormon teachings could be developed, so that a cafeteria Mormon could check a box next to each, believe or disbelieve. This type of a belief inventory would be helpful for everyone in gaining an understanding of each person who is active and/or considers himself a to-some-extent believing Mormon.
_sock puppet
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Re: Joseph Antley's Apostasy from the Church

Post by _sock puppet »

Joseph Antley wrote:But if the Church is true (which I believe it is), then there should be no danger in examining it critically. In fact we should expect only positive outcomes from such an examination.
As quoted and highlighted by LDST (thank you!).

Therein lies the siren song of apostasy that is so alluring to the apologetic mind. "[T]here should be no danger in examining it critically." It is seductive, and it is intellectually arrogant compared to the true believer who suffices to wait god's explanations that will harmonize all information. The apologist assumes his intellect is up to the task of making that harmonization before elohim/jehovah is ready to disclose that information. Is it intellectual arrogance, or just plain old fashioned impatience? Maybe for some, it is a cocktail of the two.

"In fact we should expect only positive outcomes from such an examination." This sentence by Joseph Antley explains quite well the expectations that drive the apologetic bias. What does the apologist do with claims by COJCOLDS that conflict and are incongruent with scientifically-known information? One tactic is to dismiss the science as false, or level an ad hom attack at the scientists who have developed it.

Another tactic is to 'take a closer look' at the COJCOLDS' position, shaving it ever closer until the point of the horn of unique teachings/peculiar people is smoothed over sufficient to make it congruent with the science.

There are of course other tactics the apologist employs as well, but Joseph's sentence explains quite well the bias with which the apologist approaches these issues. Not as an honest intellectual inquiry, but in looking for that tid-bit here or there that might support COB teachings, and dismissing one way or another the science that makes the COB teachings arcane and, well, ridiculous.
_Themis
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Re: Joseph Antley's Apostasy from the Church

Post by _Themis »

Joseph Antley wrote:I think it lines up perfectly with my blog post. My knowledge of history and science, my rational mind, the teachings of the prophets, and the inspiration from the Spirit seem to be the perfect combination for deducing personal truth while reading the scriptures.


Funny how the inspiration of the spirit mostly tells us what we want.
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_sock puppet
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Re: Joseph Antley's Apostasy from the Church

Post by _sock puppet »

Themis wrote:
Joseph Antley wrote:I think it lines up perfectly with my blog post. My knowledge of history and science, my rational mind, the teachings of the prophets, and the inspiration from the Spirit seem to be the perfect combination for deducing personal truth while reading the scriptures.


Funny how the inspiration of the spirit mostly tells us what we want.

Isn't it marvelous? Isn't it a wonder?
_MsJack
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Re: Joseph Antley's Apostasy from the Church

Post by _MsJack »

sock puppet wrote:Does that somehow make you feel better about COJCOLDS, expanding a negative observation about Mormons to all Christians?

What makes you think that the observation was negative?

why me wrote:Or they are all just Mormons as they were back in the day.

[SNIP]

There are just Mormons. Why put labels on people?

Newsflash, why me: I agree with this. I don't like calling people "cafeteria Mormons" because that implies that there's such a thing as a non-cafeteria Mormon. It isn't me putting labels on people.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

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_Runtu
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Re: Joseph Antley's Apostasy from the Church

Post by _Runtu »

MsJack wrote:Newsflash, why me: I agree with this. I don't like calling people "cafeteria Mormons" because that implies that there's such a thing as a non-cafeteria Mormon. It isn't me putting labels on people.


I don't think I've ever met a Mormon who wasn't a cafeteria Mormon to some degree or other. Thus, I don't think it's insulting in the least to use that term. I think the church would like non-cafeteria Mormons to exist, but I don't believe they do.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_MsJack
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Re: Joseph Antley's Apostasy from the Church

Post by _MsJack »

Runtu wrote:I don't think I've ever met a Mormon who wasn't a cafeteria Mormon to some degree or other. Thus, I don't think it's insulting in the least to use that term. I think the church would like non-cafeteria Mormons to exist, but I don't believe they do.

I don't think that the term is inherently insulting, though I have encountered Mormons who use it that way. I just find it redundant.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

My Blogs: Weighted Glory | Worlds Without End: A Mormon Studies Roundtable | Twitter
_Runtu
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Re: Joseph Antley's Apostasy from the Church

Post by _Runtu »

MsJack wrote:I don't think that the term is inherently insulting, though I have encountered Mormons who use it that way. I just find it redundant.


True that. And I hate redundancy.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
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