BrianH wrote:Darth J wrote:
BH>>Even if that was true, it would simply be irrelevant to this topic. Even IF the Bible, for example, was proven to be a total fraud, invented by the Roman Catholic Church in 1492, when Columbus sailed the ocean blue, that STILL would not in any way even vaguely hint at any kind of support for the claims of the LDS church regarding the truthfulness of their "prophet's" translation of the LDS "scriptures".
Darth>The veracity of the Bible is directly on point. If the Bible is not true, then Mormonism cannot possibly be true. The uncomfortable fact that your cherished beliefs also go down with the ship is just too bad.
Nonsense. Do try to follow here, Darth. The veracity of the Bible is not only NOT "directly on point", it is entirely
irrelevant to the challenge I have placed before Mormons here.
If Abraham never existed, as claimed in the Bible, then the rest of the discussion about the Book of Abraham is moot. Just because you want to frame the issue in a self-serving way does not mean anyone else is bound by your question-begging.
I am not asking about the truth of Mormonism in general, I am asking about the veracity of claims that a twice-convicted occult con artist supposedly translated the Egyptian Book of Breathings into the so-called "Book of Abraham" (which is as absurd as claiming that the Magna Carta was translated into a Chinese cook book).
When and of what was Joseph Smith convicted "twice"? He was not convicted of anything in the New York glass-looking proceeding. A magistrate simply found probable cause to bind him over for trial. That is not a conviction.
He was convicted of illegally running a bank in Ohio. There is one. Where is this other conviction?
MY belief pertaining to this subject is the only one that is relevant and I have good reason to believe that Smith was a total fraud. Among those reasons is the way Mormons flee from the challenge of simply providing any reason to believe them.
If there was no such person as Abraham, or if the story of Noah's ark is a myth, then necessarily the Book of Abraham is a fraud.
You put your beliefs at issue by coming here and posting. The truth value of other religious traditions is necessarily at issue with regard to Mormonism, since the LDS Church claims to be the one, true church. Also, the scope of this board is not defined by its name alone:
http://mormondiscussions.com/Mormon Discussions. . . Because we all want the truth.
Here is a place of free discussion. Whether you want to discuss the finer intricacies of doctrine, or whether you want to discuss the truthiness of the church in general, your word will be heard here.
Pro, anti, investigator, questioner, critic, apologetic, no matter what you call yourself, what you have to say, or what your agenda is, you have a place here. We pride ourselves on a minimalistic moderation policy, so that your voice is always heard.
More nonsense. Just because Mormons cannot stay on topic or answer direct challneges to the claims of their organization is no reason to pretend that the rules somehow give them an excuse to avoid dealing with such challenge.
There is almost nobody with whom you have interacted on this board who believes that Joseph Smith was a prophet or that any branch of Mormonism is the true church. That includes me.
Don't get me wrong. Mormons are indeed welcome to continue to avoid answering my challenge by trying to make ME the topic of the debate. In fact I love it when Mormons do that because they prove by their own behavior that they are unable to deal with even the simplest and most obvious questions. But by the same rules, I have the right ignore the usual hand-waving distractions and evasions and to point out their failure to address, much less answer my challenge here.
Similarly, I love it when evangelical Christians continue to avoid my challenge by making claims unique to Mormonism the topic of the debate. In fact, I love it when evangelical Christians do that because they prove by their own behavior that they are unable to deal with even the simplest and most obvious questions about their own cherished beliefs. But by the same rules, I have the right to ignore the usual hand-waving distractions and evasions, and to point out their failure to address---much less answer---my challenge to the foundation they share with Mormons (the Bible).
I think believing Mormons should find comfort that they are not the only ones who find zealots desperately clinging to double standards, special pleading, and begging the question in their midst. Nearly every person you have addressed conceded your point long before you decided to use this board as your forum for vacuous babbling. The reason you are not being taken seriously by anyone is that many formerly believing Mormons have determined that much of what is in the Bible is also myth and superstition by the same kind of critical thinking that led them to reject the truth claims of Mormonism. Nobody is ever going to take you seriously on this board, either, because:
(1) you are demanding that formerly believing Mormons defend ideas that they have already rejected; and
(2) you are trying to draw a line in the sand where formerly believing Mormons have to stop questioning religious truth claims, a limitation not found either in this board's rules or in any meaningful approach to intellectual honesty.