Runtu wrote: Here's the problem: Joseph appears to have been using the stones in the "corrupted" ways you describe before he started working on the Book of Mormon. Suddenly, however, he uses the stones to translate scripture, and it's all on the up and up. I think it's that disconnect that has driven the church culture to shy away from accurate depictions of the translation process.
It is amazing just what god can do. We need to remember that Joseph was a young man at this time. Young and inexperienced. He was pruned to be a prophet. Now here is the point: if the hat was used, and his head could not have been buried in it but rather to shield the light away, it was done by the power of god. And this is what was so impressive.
I still think that the hat is a faith builder. Very few people can write a book with their looking into a hat. Give it a try and see what happens. And have a scribe record it.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
logjamislds wrote: Here's the problem: Joseph appears to have been using the stones in the "corrupted" ways you describe before he started working on the Book of Mormon. Suddenly, however, he uses the stones to translate scripture, and it's all on the up and up. I think it's that disconnect that has driven the church culture to shy away from accurate depictions of the translation process.
I might, just in case it is not already clear, that he used the SAME stones for seeking treasure as he did for translating most of the Book of Mormon.
Wasn't most of the translating done with the stone from out of the well on the Chase property? I'll have to check.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
Fence Sitter wrote:I might, just in case it is not already clear, that he used the SAME stones for seeking treasure as he did for translating most of the Book of Mormon.
Wasn't most of the translating done with the stone from out of the well on the Chase property? I'll have to check.
Yes, it was. It's not straining at gnats to say that his "treasure seeking" was a shady business and it ought to give one pause that he used the same method (same stones and hat) to translate divine scripture.
Themis wrote: LOL Funny that you judge former members this way since you can't know how they judged less active members when they were active. Do you not see your hypocrisy and that you are making conclusions that you can't really know.
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People on this forum just as on the postmo forum constantly bring up my inactivity in a very judgemental way. These people were most likely extreme TBMs judging the less actives harshly when they were active members. I see no hypocrisy in making my judgement. People do not change from being a open minded Mormon to a an extreme judgemental person of inactives when they leave the church.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Runtu wrote: Yes, it was. It's not straining at gnats to say that his "treasure seeking" was a shady business and it ought to give one pause that he used the same method (same stones and hat) to translate divine scripture.
Except that from a hat we got the Book of Mormon. Quite a feat. The apostle Paul was a real crapper and yet, he was chosen. God is certainly strange.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Darth J wrote: The reason this is a false analogy is that paintings/drawings from official LDS sources of Joseph Smith translating the golden plates are purporting to depict a historical event. They are not representing an abstract concept (like a swastika does). But if your point about the painting of George III is that the artist was commissioned to make things look better than they appeared in real life, you are not refuting the OP. You are conceding it.
The painting showing George Washingtom crossing the delaware was a phoney too. And yet, it has been in many history books as a patriotic tool. You should resign your citizenship if you are an american.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
why me wrote: People on this forum just as on the postmo forum constantly bring up my inactivity in a very judgemental way.
It's usually becuase of your hypocritical statements to others about doing things you are not willing to do. I can see why many will bring that up.
These people were most likely extreme TBMs judging the less actives harshly when they were active members. I see no hypocrisy in making my judgement.
This is your judgmental opinion based on no facts. You did not know them as believing members, and are just wanting to believe they were hard on in-active's.
People do not change from being a open minded Mormon to a an extreme judgemental person of inactives when they leave the church.
Most treat you well, and some don't, but then some are willing to put back in your face what you dish out. This has nothing really to do with them being open or closed minded Mormon. I find most former believers to have to be very open minded to get to a point they can change their beliefs about the church.
why me wrote:It is amazing just what god can do. We need to remember that Joseph was a young man at this time. Young and inexperienced. He was pruned to be a prophet. Now here is the point: if the hat was used, and his head could not have been buried in it but rather to shield the light away, it was done by the power of god. And this is what was so impressive.
His face can be buried into it and breath and communicate easily. Why do you continue to state something so obviously incorrect and straining at a gnat. This is why you will win this prize.
I still think that the hat is a faith builder. Very few people can write a book with their looking into a hat. Give it a try and see what happens. And have a scribe record it.
Most people already have spoken and breathed will having a hat over their face. I have already shown this, yet you never deal with it. I know from past expereince it wont sink in. Kinda sad.
why me wrote:Except that from a hat we got the Book of Mormon. Quite a feat. The apostle Paul was a real crapper and yet, he was chosen. God is certainly strange.
Yes we got a book that looks very much like one written in the 19th century. Not surprising for most people outside of the church.
The various "approved" images of Joseph Smith that you found on the LDS.org website make a good point.
The subtitle under both pictures say he was 36 then...
I remember an article in Sunstone or Dialogue, which evaluates the "evolution" of JS' pictures up to one barely indistinguishable from Jesus. ( I can not word search through PDF files, so I skimmed a lot of them but could not found in a hour.)
DrW wrote:... that are not reflected in the art (iconography?) of the LDS Church.
I would write the sentence as "the iconography (art?) of the LDS Church" ...
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei