The Kingdom of Jesus

[_Hoops]

Yeah, I am not really interested in discussing whether Mormonism is "Christian" enough.

Or at all.

[_Runtu]

Or at all.

Should I be? This is a subject that has been batted around for years, and it all comes down to your perspective. Many mainstream Christians see Mormons as non-Christians. Others don't.

[_Jason Bourne]

So, when Jesus comes and reigns the earth what would we call his kingdom?

It seems to me that it could be described as an absolute monarchy that is theocratic in nature.

All the opposition will be murdered, so it proposes to bring about peace through war and murder.

All those who live will bow and call him the Christ. Doesn't sound like there will be a choice.

What are the laws going to be?

What will be the consequences for disobedience to the laws?

How will these laws be enforced?

Why is this something to look forward to?

Well if you believe the literal biblical read you about have it right. LDS end times heaps more awful plagues on the wicked as well. I recall when i read the left behind series and I was in the last book. Humanity had really been made a mess of. I guess us evil fallen depraved creatures deserved it according to the DUDE in the sky who created us. But man the plagues were awful and how they came were almost sadistical. Then when Jesus makes his appearance his is just floating along in the sky quoting scripture as the people in the army of the Anti-Christ have there head popped off or the melt and burn. It was pretty horrible really.

[_Hoops]

Should I be?

that's up to you. But yeah, since you asked, you should be.

This is a subject that has been batted around for years,

Yes it has.

and it all comes down to your perspective.

I don't think so.

Many mainstream Christians see Mormons as non-Christians. Others don't.

Quite true. But that's a discussion I've never had and I doubt I ever will.

[_Runtu]

that's up to you. But yeah, since you asked, you should be.

Why?

[_just me]

Hello JM.

People are born human beings, with all that that entails.

Well, this seems to be the crux of the issue. Just what does it entail.

From observation it appears that humans are complicated and messy. You use the term evil, I do not. When you say evil I am understanding that you mean apart from God...? Or is that what sin means? Is evil describing actions or a state of being? I need clarification.

I believe that the divine resides within us, so we disagree on this and I am not sure how to get around that. A person cannot be separate from that which is within them. If the divine is rejected, as there is no proof of it, then it is a moot point. Can't be separated from something that doesn't exist.

People are people. They do stuff that harms others, they do stuff that helps others, they do stuff that is neutral in regards to others. There are people who go through life never having broken a law or done harm to another. I would say that makes them "sinless" in the realistic sense of the word. A baby is "sinless" in my mind. A person in a coma is "sinless." A law-abiding citizen is as good as sinless.

Setting aside that human beings commit rape, murder, cheat and deceive we have many humans who are born with mental illness. Mental illness can lead people to act out in ways that can be harmful to others in the community.

What makes you assume that people will be born this way? Rockslider has shown that, biblically, there will be a significant change in the nature of creation. But let's assume that there will be mentally challenged people born, wouldn't a perfect, just God be able to address this issue? Is it necessary that we know how that is done? Wouldn't the event, should it occur, invite speculation of all kinds regarding this administration?

Yes. It is necessary to know how it is done. People can say anything they want about how things are going to change. It is quite another thing to actually be able to explain how something will occur. It's like a presidential candidate who makes a bunch of promises but never mentions how they will accomplish any of it.

Plus, if it is possible to improve living conditions shouldn't this be pursued by humanity?

Is Jesus going to ensure that there is no mental illness? How will he ensure that human beings over-ride some of their more base behaviors and only "behave themselves?"

Such is the nature of the born again experience.

Yet, people who have been born again will go to war and murder other people who have been born again if their nation tells them to. There are people who have been born again who still find themselves breaking the law. So, being born again has not changed human behavior. Sure, they are united with god, but that hasn't caused them to "behave themselves," which was your words.

Now, if behavior doesn't matter and the Kingdom of Jesus will actually be identical to society today only with everyone "united" with Christ that would be altogether different than the impression I was given from the scriptures.

I dunno. I'm confused as to whether you believe being born again will change behavior or just establish a relationship with Christ.

What about Jesus' administration will be different from the teachings of Christianity?

Because the joyous, over-riding teaching of Christianity is not about behavior, it's about relationship.

I'm not sure I follow this answer from the question posed. Are you saying that nothing will be different other than everyone will get some one on one time with Jesus? Are you saying that Jesus' administration actually will not cause a change in behavior?

I ask because the teachings of Christianity have not made men behave themselves as of yet...and it has been a nearly 2000 year experiment. How will Jesus change reality or humanity?

It sure hasn't. What does this tell us? I'll say it again. Christianity is not about behavior - at least primarily, and specifically initially. Are you then conceding that man can not help but misbehave? I completely agree. Now you're left with addressing your legitimate concern about how The Kingdom of God has arrived.

Some people break the law, some people don't. I don't break the law. Misbehaving is breaking the law.

I noticed that in your last sentence you say "...The Kingdom of God has arrived." Are you of the opinion that the Second Coming and establishment of the KoG is a personal event, a literal event that will involve the whole world, or both?

Now, if peace means freedom from war

I can't agree with that. Peace doesn't just mean removing enmity in a religious sense, it means forming relationships.

I don't have a problem with that. This is what peace means according to Lord Wiki:

"Peace is a state of harmony characterized by the lack of violent conflict. Commonly understood as the absence of hostility, peace also suggests the existence of healthy or newly healed interpersonal or international relationships, prosperity in matters of social or economic welfare, the establishment of equality, and a working political order that serves the true interests of all. In international relations, peacetime is not only the absence of war or conflict, but also the presence of cultural and economic understanding and unity.There is also a sense of tolerance in international relations for the realization of true peace."

I guess if one kills everyone they don't agree with they could establish relationships with those whom they allowed to live.

then it looks like the Kingdom of Jesus is a fail since it will be established following the biggest war of extermination in the history of the earth.

See above.

War as a tool for peace is a contradiction and can never be so.

In a spiritual sense, I agree. However, war has often resulted in peace between governments.

War does not lead to peace. It never has and it never will.

It often has and will continue.

You have pointed out the temporary state of peace that certain nations currently enjoy. I do not believe that it can be shown that war lead to the peace. The wars never solved the actual problems. The only thing that has ever lead to actual peace is the establishment of law over the groups in conflict.

I think that a true and living god could come up with a better way to establish peace than by murdering all the opposition. But, I've already mentioned that before.

Now, if Jesus is not actually going to kill people when he comes I would have a lot less problems with this theology. If he uses law to establish peace among humanity then he would probably get my vote. Oh wait, I forgot...no voting since it is an absolute monarchy. ;)

[_logjamislds]

You missed, or ignored my point on that; as the world descends into corruption and violence, the wicked will wind up eliminating the wicked, as the Lamanites did with the Nephites; I doubt Christ will have any blood on His hands. In any event, in a choice of government between Jesus Christ and Lucifer, who currently rules this earth, would you seriously hesitate and weigh the two?

[_just me]

You missed, or ignored my point on that; as the world descends into corruption and violence, the wicked will wind up eliminating the wicked, as the Lamanites did with the Nephites; I doubt Christ will have any blood on His hands. In any event, in a choice of government between Jesus Christ and Lucifer, who currently rules this earth, would you seriously hesitate and weigh the two?

Who are the wicked? What have they done to deserve the death penalty? Why is it moral for god to "use" people to do his killing?

How will the reign of Jesus differ from the reign of Lucifer? Exactly what will be different?

[_Drifting]

You missed, or ignored my point on that; as the world descends into corruption and violence, the wicked will wind up eliminating the wicked, as the Lamanites did with the Nephites; I doubt Christ will have any blood on His hands. In any event, in a choice of government between Jesus Christ and Lucifer, who currently rules this earth, would you seriously hesitate and weigh the two?

When the flood killed all those children under the age of accountability who was that down to?

[_huckelberry]

Well if you believe the literal biblical read you about have it right. LDS end times heaps more awful plagues on the wicked as well. I recall when i read the left behind series and I was in the last book. Humanity had really been made a mess of. I guess us evil fallen depraved creatures deserved it according to the DUDE in the sky who created us. But man the plagues were awful and how they came were almost sadistical. Then when Jesus makes his appearance his is just floating along in the sky quoting scripture as the people in the army of the Anti-Christ have there head popped off or the melt and burn. It was pretty horrible really.

Jason, thankyou for giving me more reason not to read the left behind series. I find it very difficult to imagine how I could believe Christianity if I thought that was a good picture of Jesus project of the kingdom of God. Maybe that image is the reason I get the sense that I accomplish zero communication using the phrase kingdom of God. The precious phrase has been so degraded.

I do not believe imaginary pictures of the Kingdom, mine included have any chance of being literally accurate. I would however prefer George McDonalds book Lilith to at least point in a better direction than the hyper pharisistic nightmare versions periodically popularized. I believe a kind of purgatory which transitions people into the kingdom is a better picture of Jesus project.