Was Jesus a Mormon?

[_BrianH]

BH>>My "interpretation" of the Bible is not the issue here. And even if it was, I have not even represented it such that you could even pretend to make such a judgment.

The issue here, in this discussion, is my challenge that the Mormons show us evidence that will support their practice of attributing the seven distinctively LDS doctrines I listed in the OP to Jesus Christ. So far the closest anyone has come is a copy-paste list of isolated, context-free quotes from the 3rd - 4th century church. But in each case the citations were deceptively offered.

CG>Your so-called challenge doesn't make one lick of sense in terms of LDS doctrine and theology.

Exactly!

First of all it IS a real, actual challenge, and I totally agree that such a challenge makes "no sense" to Mormons. In fact, that is my ultimate point!

Mormons are mentally conditioned to think of challenges to the claims of their organization as making no sense at all. But to thinking people, it is entirely reasonable to ask for some reasons why we should believe a self-proclaimed "prophet", especially when he makes claims that are prima-facia absurd. When a "prophet" claims, for example, to have received "revelations from God" about a supposedly vast civilization of Egyptian-writing, Jewish American Indians supposedly baptizing each other into the "Christian" "Church" hundreds of years before Christ himself was even born, any even minimally cogent person has a right to ask WHY he is supposed to believe such an absurdity.

But to Mormons, such a question makes no sense.

Exactly my ultimate point.

Thanks CG!!

-BH

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[_Runtu]

Exactly!

First of all it IS a real, actual challenge, and I totally agree that such a challenge makes "no sense" to Mormons. In fact, that is my ultimate point!

Mormons are mentally conditioned to think of challenges to the claims of their organization as making no sense at all. But to thinking people, it is entirely reasonable to ask for some reasons why we should believe a self-proclaimed "prophet", especially when he makes claims that are prima-facia absurd. When a "prophet" claims, for example, to have received "revelations from God" about a supposedly vast civilization of Egyptian-writing, Jewish American Indians supposedly baptizing each other into the "Christian" "Church" hundreds of years before Christ himself was even born, any even minimally cogent person has a right to ask WHY he is supposed to believe such an absurdity.

But to Mormons, such a question makes no sense.

Exactly my ultimate point.

Thanks CG!!

-BH

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Give it a damned rest. Mormons are human beings, not brainwashed cowards. I'm really tired of you slamming my ancestors, my relatives, and my friends. We might actually have a decent discussion if you could refrain from the insults.

And why on earth are you insisting that atheists, agnostics, and other ex-Mormons defend Mormonism?

[_emilysmith]

I'll bite.

In my previous post, I already mentioned the polytheism of the Israelites.

Brian H, do you dispute that the Israelites were polythiestic? Do you dispute that Asherah was considered to be the wife of Elohim?

I will also posit that early Christians, as well as modern day Christians are polytheistic in that they often pray(ed) to angels for intercessory favors. At the very best, they are monalotrous, believing in deatified (is that a word?) figures, as well as Satan, but worshipping only one God... as commanded.

[_BrianH]

Give it a f*****g rest. Mormons are human beings, not brainwashed cowards. I'm really tired of you slamming my ancestors, my relatives, and my friends. We might actually have a decent discussion if you could refrain from the insults.

And why on earth are you insisting that atheists, agnostics, and other ex-Mormons defend Mormonism?

ooooooo ...much have touched a nerve, there R!

Just calm down K? Take a deep breath, resist the urge to EMOTE and try to actually use your God-given ability to simply reason here.

If Mormons had a lick of intellectual courage, I would expect that they would quit running from the simplest and most obvious questions about what their organization has told them to "think" and we could rightly expect that at least ONE of them would simply answer the challenge I posed in this thread.

Can you provide me with any reasons to think that Jesus Christ taught the definitive LDS doctrines listed in the OP?

Apparently not.

Don't get all wadded up about it. Just cool out and try to actually THINK about what that means.

-BH

[_BrianH]

I'll bite.

In my previous post, I already mentioned the polytheism of the Israelites.

Brian H, do you dispute that the Israelites were polythiestic? Do you dispute that Asherah was considered to be the wife of Elohim?

Hi there Emily Smith.

There is a big difference between what some Israelites believed and what God revealed to them. I do not dispute that many Israelites repeatedly committed the ERROR of polytheism. The Bible itself provides numerous accounts of this fact. Read the book of Judges, for example. Moreover the Bible clearly records that God repeatedly PUNISHED them for that error and also that He consistently repeated His claim that He alone is the only God there was, is or ever will be.

I will also posit that early Christians, as well as modern day Christians are polytheistic in that they often pray(ed) to angels for intercessory favors. At the very best, they are monalotrous, believing in deatified (is that a word?) figures, as well as Satan, but worshipping only one God... as commanded.

Then you are confused. The simple fact is Christianity is a monotheistic faith. You appear to be confusing the ERRORS of some practices (both Christian and Jewish) with the normative theology of those religions. Nowhere does Jesus or anyone else in the Bible pray to angels. And even if they did, angles are NOT Gods, thus the term polytheism simply does not apply.

Tell me, do YOU believe in Ashoreth, or Baal, or Dagon?

-BH

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[_Runtu]

ooooooo ...much have touched a nerve, there R!

Just calm down K? Take a deep breath, resist the urge to EMOTE and try to actually use your God-given ability to simply reason here.

I may be one of those evil apostates, but I recognize ridicule when I see it, and you have clearly been ridiculing Mormons.

If Mormons had a lick of intellectual courage, I would expect that they would quit running from the simplest and most obvious questions about what their organization has told them to "think" and we could rightly expect that at least ONE of them would simply answer the challenge I posed in this thread.

I really don't care about your question. I'm just tired of the mocking and sneering coming from you. I thought Christians were supposed to be better than that.

Can you provide me with any reasons to think that Jesus Christ taught the definitive LDS doctrines listed in the OP?

Apparently not.

Don't get all wadded up about it. Just cool out and try to actually THINK about what that means.

-BH

Why would you expect me to defend Mormonism? What would be the point? Why would I ruin my reputation as one of Satan's minions?

[_BrianH]

ooooooo ...much have touched a nerve, there R!

Just calm down K? Take a deep breath, resist the urge to EMOTE and try to actually use your God-given ability to simply reason here.

I may be one of those evil apostates, but I recognize ridicule when I see it, and you have clearly been ridiculing Mormons.

If Mormons had a lick of intellectual courage, I would expect that they would quit running from the simplest and most obvious questions about what their organization has told them to "think" and we could rightly expect that at least ONE of them would simply answer the challenge I posed in this thread.

I really don't care about your question. I'm just tired of the mocking and sneering coming from you. I thought Christians were supposed to be better than that.

Can you provide me with any reasons to think that Jesus Christ taught the definitive LDS doctrines listed in the OP?

Apparently not.

Don't get all wadded up about it. Just cool out and try to actually THINK about what that means.

-BH

Why would you expect me to defend Mormonism? What would be the point? Why would I ruin my reputation as one of Satan's minions?

I do not expect YOU to defend Mormonism at all if you are not a Mormon (...which I had no way of knowing to begin with!!). I posted this thread to see if a Mormon could defend this particular claim of Mormonism. In fact I did not ask YOU to defend Mormonism at all. I just asked you to THINK about what it means that Mormons cannot answer such a basic and obvious question.

The fact that Mormons have not been able to answer such an obvious question and the kind of treatment I have received here and elsewhere for daring to ask it is what is truly ridiculing Mormonism and those Mormons who have behaved as they have.

-BH

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[_Runtu]

For example, can Mormons show us where Christ ever taught:

1.) the Jesus-Satan brotherhood
2.) polygamy
3.) polytheism
4.) That God the Father is a mere demigod
5.) Adam is God
6.) That men can become Gods, just as all Gods before them did
7.) That men become Gods by, in part, learning secret handshakes and passwords and participating in 17th century revisions of ancient Babylonian initiation rites?

...?

While not all Mormons personally believe each of these supposedly "restored" doctrines, they most certainly ARE (or at least were) part of the "restored" gospel claimed by the Mormon church. But unless Mormons can show us some reasons to think that Christ himself actually believed, taught and/or practiced these things, its hard to see why anyone should believe the claim that the LDS church has "restored" anything other than the figments of the collective, fevered imaginations of Mormons. Furthermore, if Jesus himself did NOT teach the distinguishing claims of Mormonism, why should anyone give a hoot about what the LDS church claims?

The challenge here is for Mormons to SHOW US some reasons to think that Christ himself ever taught the doctrines and practices listed above. Please do not simply state what you have been told to "think" by the LDS church. All of us here already know WHAT Mormons have been led to believe. What you must do, if you want to meet the challenge here is to tell us WHY we should think that what you believe is actually TRUE.

thank you

-BH

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All right (putting on my Mormon hat again).

1. Jesus taught that He is the Son of God. He also said that we are children of God. LDS prophets have reaffirmed that, seeing as they get their revelation from Jesus. So, all of God's human creations are in a loose sense brothers and sisters, including Jesus, Satan, and us. Jesus, however, occupies a different position than we do: "Like other Christians, we believe Jesus is the divine Son of God. Satan is a fallen angel. As the Apostle Paul wrote, God is the Father of all. That means that all beings were created by God and are His spirit children. Christ, however, was the only begotten in the flesh, and we worship Him as the Son of God and the Savior of mankind." It's not like Jesus and Satan are analogous to Wally and The Beaver.

2. Since the Lord (a.k.a. Jesus) revealed section 132 to Joseph Smith, it's a safe bet he approved of polygamy.

3. In the same section, Jesus tells us that all those who are saved and exalted are gods. Hence, a plurality of gods.

4. This is not an actual teaching of Mormonism, so it doesn't count.

5. This is a disputed teaching and not accepted as doctrine, so again, doesn't count.

6. See #3 above.

7. In the endowment, Jehovah (Jesus) instructs Peter, James, and John to present Adam and Eve (and everyone else) to give the signs and tokens preparatory to entering into God's presence.

There. That was simple.

[_BrianH]

For example, can Mormons show us where Christ ever taught:

1.) the Jesus-Satan brotherhood
2.) polygamy
3.) polytheism
4.) That God the Father is a mere demigod
5.) Adam is God
6.) That men can become Gods, just as all Gods before them did
7.) That men become Gods by, in part, learning secret handshakes and passwords and participating in 17th century revisions of ancient Babylonian initiation rites?

...?

While not all Mormons personally believe each of these supposedly "restored" doctrines, they most certainly ARE (or at least were) part of the "restored" gospel claimed by the Mormon church. But unless Mormons can show us some reasons to think that Christ himself actually believed, taught and/or practiced these things, its hard to see why anyone should believe the claim that the LDS church has "restored" anything other than the figments of the collective, fevered imaginations of Mormons. Furthermore, if Jesus himself did NOT teach the distinguishing claims of Mormonism, why should anyone give a hoot about what the LDS church claims?

The challenge here is for Mormons to SHOW US some reasons to think that Christ himself ever taught the doctrines and practices listed above. Please do not simply state what you have been told to "think" by the LDS church. All of us here already know WHAT Mormons have been led to believe. What you must do, if you want to meet the challenge here is to tell us WHY we should think that what you believe is actually TRUE.

.

All right (putting on my Mormon hat again).

1. Jesus taught that He is the Son of God. He also said that we are children of God. LDS prophets have reaffirmed that, seeing as they get their revelation from Jesus. So, all of God's human creations are in a loose sense brothers and sisters, including Jesus, Satan, and us. Jesus, however, occupies a different position than we do: "Like other Christians, we believe Jesus is the divine Son of God. Satan is a fallen angel. As the Apostle Paul wrote, God is the Father of all. That means that all beings were created by God and are His spirit children. Christ, however, was the only begotten in the flesh, and we worship Him as the Son of God and the Savior of mankind." It's not like Jesus and Satan are analogous to Wally and The Beaver.

But it is. Mormon theology maintains that Jesus and Satan were both children of God the Father (a mere demigod) and one of his celestial wives. Not EXACTLY Wally and the Beave, but not substantially different in terms of the fraternal relationship.

2. Since the Lord (a.k.a. Jesus) revealed section 132 to Joseph Smith, it's a safe bet he approved of polygamy.

That is indeed the Mormon claim. The challenge here is to provide some reason to think this claim is TRUE.

3. In the same section, Jesus tells us that all those who are saved and exalted are gods. Hence, a plurality of gods.

Same problem. Just citing the CLAIMS of Joseph Smith cannot reasonably stand as support for those very claims. This is circular reasoning.

4. This is not an actual teaching of Mormonism, so it doesn't count.

That is simply false. The LDS doctrine of God affirms that the Father is an "exalted man" - the very definition of a "demigod".

5. This is a disputed teaching and not accepted as doctrine, so again, doesn't count.

It may indeed be that some Mormons have the good sense to dispute this doctrine. That does not obviate the FACT that the Mormon "prophets" most certainly DID teach it.

6. See #3 above.

Indeed, see my refutation. Such circular reasoning as this is simply irrational

7. In the endowment, Jehovah (Jesus) instructs Peter, James, and John to present Adam and Eve (and everyone else) to give the signs and tokens preparatory to entering into God's presence.

Again, simply stating the claim I am asking you to support is not the same thing as actually supporting it.

There. That was simple.

Simple? Yes - but none of it amounts to any REASON to think what Mormons claim is actually TRUE. Re-stating a claim, pointing out that some Mormons do not believe some of them, denying others and/or trying to back some with circular arguments hardly amounts to any actual support for those claims.

-BH

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[_Runtu]

But it is. Mormon theology maintains that Jesus and Satan were both children of God the Father (a mere demigod) and one of his celestial wives. Not EXACTLY Wally and the Beave, but not substantially different in terms of the fraternal relationship.

Except for it's the same fraternal relationship we are all supposed to have with Jesus. I count all humans as my brothers and sisters. That doesn't mean I have a close sibling relationship with all of them.

That is indeed the Mormon claim. The challenge here is to provide some reason to think this claim is TRUE.

That's a silly challenge, indeed. Provide some reason for me to believe that Adam and Eve were the first humans or that Abraham existed or that Paul saw Christ on the road to Damascus. Can't be done.

Same problem. Just citing the CLAIMS of Joseph Smith cannot reasonably stand as support for those very claims. This is circular reasoning.

In the same way, appeal to the Bible cannot reasonably stand as support for Christian claims. See how much fun this is?

That is simply false. The LDS doctrine of God affirms that the Father is an "exalted man" - the very definition of a "demigod".

Uh, no. Here's the definition:

demi·god noun \ˈde-mē-ˌgäd\

: a mythological being with more power than a mortal but less than a god

2
: a person so outstanding as to seem to approach the divine <the demigods of jazz>

Mormonism does not consider God to be less than a god.

It may indeed be that some Mormons have the good sense to dispute this doctrine. That does not obviate the FACT that the Mormon "prophets" most certainly DID teach it.

I know that, but it's never been canonized and accepted as doctrine, so it's unfair to say it's Mormon doctrine. It's not.

Indeed, see my refutation. Such circular reasoning as this is simply irrational.

I'll remember this the next time you appeal to the Bible.

Again, simply stating the claim I am asking you to support is not the same thing as actually supporting it.

And that is a silly request, as I said.

Simple? Yes - but none of it amounts to any REASON to think what Mormons claim is actually TRUE. Re-stating a claim, pointing out that some Mormons do not believe some of them, denying others and/or trying to back some with circular arguments hardly amounts to any actual support for those claims.

-BH

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Then there is also no reason to think that anything in the Bible is true, is there? Why do you think some mythology is self-evident, but Mormon myths aren't? It's a double-standard.