For BrianH--Response to Challenge No. 7--Passwords to Heaven

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_consiglieri
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For BrianH--Response to Challenge No. 7--Passwords to Heaven

Post by _consiglieri »

In another thread, BrianH challenged Mormons to show where Jesus ever taught seven distinctly LDS teachings.

The purpose of this thread is to respond to number seven on that list:

7.) That men become Gods by, in part, learning secret handshakes and passwords and participating in 17th century revisions of ancient Babylonian initiation rites?


The purpose of this thread is to demonstrate one strand of ancient Judaism, as well as early Christianity, did in fact believe that passwords and/or "seals" were necessary to pass the angels that guard the gates of various heavens.

The following comes from an introduction to a translation of 3 Enoch made by P. Alexander, whom I have no reason to suspect as being a Mormon.

Classic rabbinic literature makes it clear that there was an esoteric doctrine in Talmudic Judaism. It was concerned with two subjects—the Account of Creation and the Account of the Chariot. All study and discussion of these topics in public was banned. . . . Those who ignored these injunctions did so at their peril. . . . Despite efforts to keep Merkabah teaching secret, we are not entirely in the dark as to its contents in the Talmudic period; some elements of it are disclosed. 3 (Hebrew Apocalypse of) Enoch, A New Translation and Introduction by P. Alexander, in James H. Charlesworth, ed., The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, (Doubleday; New York, NY) 1983, pp. 229-30.


One of the elements of this secret teaching involved the "seals" that had to be given to guardian angels during the mystic's ascent to the throne of God:

The Merkabah texts stress the dangers of the ascent: To reach the throne of God the mystic had to pass through seven gates guarded by awesome archangels. He must have the right ‘seals’ to show them and he must know the names of the angels. p. 233.


This teaching is also found in an ancient Christian text, The Ascension of Isaiah, where "passwords" are used to get past the guardian angels of the lowest three heavens (there are seven total heavens in both texts).

Ascension of Isaiah 10:24-31 mentions angelic guardians of the gates of the various palaces, to whom passwords have to be given. This recalls the Merkabah notion of the gatekeepers of the seven heavenly palaces, to whom ‘seals’ have to be shown by the mystic on his way up to heaven. p. 248.


P. Alexander sees a strong parallel here to Isaiah’s vision in Isaiah 6:1-11, as well as to 2 Corinthians 12:1-7.

I would be interested in finding out what you make of this, Brian H.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_Runtu
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Re: For BrianH--Response to Challenge No. 7--Passwords to He

Post by _Runtu »

Fascinating stuff, consig. Thanks for posting it.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_LDSToronto
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Re: For BrianH--Response to Challenge No. 7--Passwords to He

Post by _LDSToronto »

And now it's time for the A-MAZ-ING Carsoni and his equally A-MAZ-ING act,"What would BrianH say?":

"Jesus never said that"

THANK YOU EVERYBODY, and GOODNIGHT!

H.
"Others cannot endure their own littleness unless they can translate it into meaningfulness on the largest possible level."
~ Ernest Becker
"Whether you think of it as heavenly or as earthly, if you love life immortality is no consolation for death."
~ Simone de Beauvoir
_consiglieri
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Re: For BrianH--Response to Challenge No. 7--Passwords to He

Post by _consiglieri »

I think Jesus gave Mormons a huge loophole with that not casting pearls before swine bit.

Strangely, this password stuff was regarded in exactly the same way.

But you are probably right, LDST. I expect BrianH will brand as unacceptable any actual evidence against his challenge.




All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_Runtu
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Re: For BrianH--Response to Challenge No. 7--Passwords to He

Post by _Runtu »

consiglieri wrote:I think Jesus gave Mormons a huge loophole with that not casting pearls before swine bit.

Strangely, this password stuff was regarded in exactly the same way.

But you are probably right, LDST. I expect BrianH will brand as unacceptable any actual evidence against his challenge.




All the Best!

--Consiglieri


In his responses to me, he's restricted acceptable evidence to that found in the Bible. Kind of pointless, if you ask me.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_consiglieri
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Re: For BrianH--Response to Challenge No. 7--Passwords to He

Post by _consiglieri »

Runtu wrote:In his responses to me, he's restricted acceptable evidence to that found in the Bible. Kind of pointless, if you ask me.


No doubt should BrianH ever get around to responding to the OP, he will claim it is a rabbit trail he refuses to follow.







And that I am running away.









And a coward.








And a little girl.





All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_Fence Sitter
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Re: For BrianH--Response to Challenge No. 7--Passwords to He

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Runtu wrote:
In his responses to me, he's restricted acceptable evidence to that found in the Bible. Kind of pointless, if you ask me.



Which Bible?

Can we use this one?

http://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smiths-New-Translation-Bible/dp/0830900322
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_consiglieri
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Re: For BrianH--Response to Challenge No. 7--Passwords to He

Post by _consiglieri »

Bumping this for BrianH whose meds appear to wear off in the afternoon.
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_LDSToronto
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Re: For BrianH--Response to Challenge No. 7--Passwords to He

Post by _LDSToronto »

Fence Sitter wrote:
Runtu wrote:
In his responses to me, he's restricted acceptable evidence to that found in the Bible. Kind of pointless, if you ask me.



Which Bible?

Can we use this one?

http://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smiths-New-Translation-Bible/dp/0830900322


And this one:

http://www.harpercollins.ca/books/Harpercollins-Study-Bible/?isbn=9780060786854
"Others cannot endure their own littleness unless they can translate it into meaningfulness on the largest possible level."
~ Ernest Becker
"Whether you think of it as heavenly or as earthly, if you love life immortality is no consolation for death."
~ Simone de Beauvoir
_consiglieri
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Posts: 6186
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:47 pm

Re: For BrianH--Response to Challenge No. 7--Passwords to He

Post by _consiglieri »

You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
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