Peterson: Still lying, still a coward

[_Kishkumen]

I read Carla Ogden faxes every evening for spiritual guidance.

[_sr1030]

Here's an update for you both: The "2nd Watson Letter" was rediscovered in late 2009 among the papers of FARMS apologist John Sorenson. Gregory Smith, a FAIR apologist, scanned it in. You can read about this at:

viewtopic.php?p=281660#p281660

Unfortunately, the letter turned out to be nothing more than a fax from one Carla Ogden, an unknown functionary in the Church Office building, not Michael Watson. You can read the fax at:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon ... etter_scan

Even more unfortunately, the text of the fax turned out to have been merely copied-and-pasted from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism from an article by Daniel H. Ludlow, a professor at BYU and not connected to the Office of the First Presidency at all. You can read about it at:

viewtopic.php?p=282278#p282278

Very interesting subject, thanks for the information. I have been gone from the boards so long I wasn't aware of the issue.

sr

[_zeezrom]

I have a sort of related question. Do the church leaders (FP/12) even care one bit how many Hill Camorahs there are?

[_sr1030]

I have a sort of related question. Do the church leaders (FP/12) even care one bit how many Hill Camorahs there are?

I don't think they have a choice now:

On the subject of a Mesoamerican Cumorah, apostle Joseph Fielding Smith wrote in 1956:

It is known that the Hill Cumorah where the Nephites were destroyed is the hill where the Jaredites were also destroyed. This hill was known to the Jaredites as Ramah. It was approximately near to the waters of Ripliancum, which the Book of Ether says, 'by interpretation, is large or to exceed all.' ... It must be conceded that this description fits perfectly the land of Cumorah in New York ... for the hill is in the proximity of the Great Lakes, and also in the land of many rivers and fountains. (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, pp. 233–234).

Elder Mark E. Petersen stated:

I do not believe that there were two Hill Cumorahs, one in Central America and the other one up in New York, for the convenience of the Prophet Joseph Smith, so that the poor boy would not have to walk clear to Central America to get the gold plates. (123rd Annual Conference of the Church, April 4–6, 1953, General Conference Report, pp. 83-84; or Improvement Era, June 1953, p. 423)

Elder Bruce R. McConkie wrote:

Both the Nephite and the Jaredite civilizations fought their final great wars of extinction at and near the Hill Cumorah (or Ramah as the Jaredites termed it), which hill is located between Palmyra and Manchester in the western part of the state of New York ... Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, and many early brethren, who were familiar with the circumstances attending the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in this dispensation, have left us pointed testimony as to the identity and location of Cumorah or Ramah. (Mormon Doctrine, s.v. “Cumorah”, p. 175)


sr

[_DrW]

Some of the members of my (large) TBM family are aware (dimly perhaps) that the Hill Cumorah problem is a significant one for the LGT (which they like to believe in).

Knowing that a number of published statements by Church Leaders run counter to the LGT, and that the LDS Church Chief Apologist in Charge and his sidekick are grossly misrepresenting the evidence regarding this issue (even if it does consist entirely of bald assertions), would probably be disturbing to them. This is not because they care about or follow apologetics. It is because when they do encounter apologetics it often confuses and even embarrasses them and they feel that apologetics on the whole does not help the Church.

I think that they would not be surprised to learn that the apologists involved here refuse to admit to or acknowledge their lapse in ethics.

As Chapel Mormons, they do not hold apologists or apologetics in very high regard. I know that at least one of my daughters would not want her older children spending time on apologetics websites any more than she would want them spending time on anti-Mormon websites.

Both are faith eroding, but at least she can claim that the anti-Mormon sites contain lies and misrepresentations and are not to be trusted. As this thread indicates, the same could be said for some of the content on apologetics sites.

[_DrW]

I have a sort of related question. Do the church leaders (FP/12) even care one bit how many Hill Camorahs there are?

Perhaps not. But is that a good thing?

[_sock puppet]

I have a sort of related question. Do the church leaders (FP/12) even care one bit how many Hill Camorahs there are?

Historically, they did. JSJr referred to the hill near Palmyra as the Hill Cumorah. Many of the FP/12 would state the Hill Cumorah was in upstate New York when giving GC talks about the Book of Mormon, right through the 1970s. When a bishop in Oklahoma relayed a members question to the FP, its ecclesiastically-called and set-apart "Secretary" (Watson) very clearly noted in a reply letter that the Hill Cumorah is one and the same, located in upstate NY.

It was only when it was becoming painfully obvious that such was a farce, given the impracticalities and lack of supporting archaeological evidence that the Brethren have gone silent.

Given how the LGT has now been debunked too, the obvious next step is for the Brethren/COB to take the Gadianton Turn and admit the Book of Mormon is fiction, but yet cling to the notion that it repeats the teachings of the Bible, so in that redundancy yet has some remnant value.

[_Drifting]

I think the issue for the FP/12 is not so much that they think it might also have been in Central America. It is that they now know, or very strongly suspect, that the hill in New York is definitely not the Hill Cumorah despite what their predecessors have stated so clearly.

That is something they cannot, will not, under any circumstances concede.
Because to do so turns Joseph Smith et al into liars.

[_sock puppet]

I think the issue for the FP/12 is not so much that they think it might also have been in Central America. It is that they now know, or very strongly suspect, that the hill in New York is definitely not the Hill Cumorah despite what their predecessors have stated so clearly.

That is something they cannot, will not, under any circumstances concede.
Because to do so turns Joseph Smith et al into liars.

Ergo, the FP/12 have gone silent about it.

[_Shulem]

Joseph Fielding Smith, Mark E. Peterson, Bruce R. McConkie, and the rest of the Mormon prophet-clan didn't know what they were talking about. They made statements to the church and the world that were utterly false and untrue. The Holy Ghost did not speak through them while making these statements and they placed their faith in something that simply wasn't true. They led the people astray into having faith into something that is not true.

Mormonism is built upon the foundation of things that are not true! The black person in Facsimile No. 3 is NOT a slave. Joseph Smith knowingly told a lie! Mormonism was born from lies.

Be careful about anything doctor Peterson says. Truth is not neccessarily what you'll get from him.

Paul O