For bcspace: Socialism and Mormonism

[_Runtu]

And then we get back to "what is doctrine?"

I believe too much authority has been given to church departments to declare doctrine. I understand why the church made the statement it did about approaching doctrine, but I think it's led to some people placing far too much stock in publications that do not have as much oversight from the Brethren as people think.

[_Yahoo Bot]

We already know it was not implemented correctly. Not a valid argument.

Have errands to run.

You tell me that the United Order was designed to permit a wealthy entrant to hold back retirement and investment savings and keep them on his way out, yet you cite no example. There were hundreds of separate United Orders.

I think the burden is upon you to prove your assertion, not for me to disprove it. I didn't make the assertion. If I made the assertion that official doctrine was that the Hill Cumorah in NY is the same as the Jaredite's Ramah, you'd want chapter and verse and wouldn't accept a "prove it ain't so" argument. If you want to venture into the field of apologia you'll need to prove your assertions rather than demand they be disproved.

If you don't want to give me an example of one brother who held back his wealth, and got away with it (recall that Ananias and Sapphira were killed for holding back) then I invite you to cite from sermons or other 19th century statements indicating that a United Order entrant could hold back substantial wealth.

Having said that, I find your demand to prove a negative challenging, so I'll get back to ya.

[_zeezrom]

Hey guys,

It's true that there is a very big difference between Socialism/Communism and UO in the early church. It is this:

The Mormons weren't very good at living it so they stopped. Nobody was threatened with imprisonment or bodily harm or even fines if they didn't continue the practice. Although, they might have been threatened with damnation in the afterlife...

[_Yahoo Bot]

Hey guys,

It's true that there is a very big difference between Socialism/Communism and UO in the early church. It is this:

The Mormons weren't very good at living it so they stopped. Nobody was threatened with imprisonment or bodily harm or even fines if they didn't continue the practice. Although, they might have been threatened with damnation in the afterlife...

Umm, adherents of 19th Century U.S. communism or socialism -- the type of which Joseph Smith was familiar -- were not threatened with bodily harm or imprisonment or fines.

Too bad that so much of our high school and college education has been warped by the Red Scare.

Were you ever taught that the U.S. military marched into Mexico City and raised the Stars and Stripes over the Presidential Palace? And that the Mexican - American war was started on a pretext by U.S. citizens in Texas? Mexicans are taught that in elementary school. It is all in the perspective.

[_zeezrom]

Umm, adherents of 19th Century U.S. communism or socialism -- the type of which Joseph Smith was familiar -- were not threatened with bodily harm or imprisonment or fines.

19th Century U.S. communism? I didn't even think about that.

Anyway, it could easily be that I don't know much about how communism/socialism was sustained in Eastern Europe and USSR. I assumed the people were compelled to comply with the system. I just assumed they were compelled to comply out of fear of some sort of fine/harm/etc.

Maybe I'm wrong.

If so, Mormon UO is probably more like communism/socialism than I had originally thought.

[_Yahoo Bot]

Umm, adherents of 19th Century U.S. communism or socialism -- the type of which Joseph Smith was familiar -- were not threatened with bodily harm or imprisonment or fines.

19th Century U.S. communism? I didn't even think about that.

Anyway, it could easily be that I don't know much about how communism/socialism was sustained in Eastern Europe and USSR. I assumed the people were compelled to comply with the system. I just assumed they were compelled to comply out of fear of some sort of fine/harm/etc.

Maybe I'm wrong.

If so, Mormon UO is probably more like communism/socialism than I had originally thought.

Joseph Smith took a look at Owenism, which was communism at worst and socialism at best. Owenism was an example of dozens of communities in the midwest which sprung up in the 1830s. Some were religious based; some were not. One of the most famous remnants of one of those communities is the Amana community, which today makes refrigerators. Another famous community was the Oneida community, which makes today flatwear. So, any comment Joseph Smith made about socialism was about these communities, not some repressive Eastern European government.

So, during the Red Scare, some of the more conservative Church authors, such as Skousen, used Joseph Smith's disapproval of Owenism as a way to trash Soviet collectivism and, at the same time, opine that Mormon utopianism was not socialism or communism.

The facts remain, however, that "communism" was intensely popular in the United States at one time, and many academics were communists, including Church members I could name who later rose to significant positions of responsibility in the church. U.S. communists deluded themselves into thinking that communists were pacifists and these well-meaning persons ignored critical media pieces about Stalin.

But these 19th century concepts are not the same as the 20th century concepts. The only ones who think so are those who worship Reed Benson and CLeon Skousen.

[_zeezrom]

Yahoo Bot,

So what I was trying to say was that Mormon UO is different than communism/socialism of the 20th century.

Thanks,

Zee.

[_ludwigm]

I don't know much about how communism/socialism was sustained in Eastern Europe and USSR

You are fortunate.

I assumed the people were compelled to comply with the system. I just assumed they were compelled to comply out of fear of some sort of fine/harm/etc.

Yes, some sort of.
People were executed, jailed, deported, beaten, stigmatized - the list is long.



They have created it: Do You know the man in the middle?

We were thrown under Stalin's boots. That is all.



Had we been a little more westerly - or a little bigger than a flyspeck on the map in the eyes of Roosevelt and Churchill - then we were now a consolidated country like Austria.

Sorry for my diatribe.

[_ludwigm]

...doctrine

...spouting Church conservatism dressed up with John Bircher philosophy
...Capitalism is the fourth member of the Godhead

+1

Brilliant!

[_Buffalo]

I think the main reason the United Order doesn't qualify as socialism it wasn't the people who owned everything jointly, but rather Joseph Smith who owned everything. More like feudalism than socialism, in other words.