Translation Process for Documents

[_Runtu]

Like I said, why me, it's classic misdirection. That it is still working today speaks to its genius.

[_why me]

And from the same source that I just linked to we have this:

David Whitmer repeatedly insisted the translation process occurred in full view of Joseph Smith's family and associates. (The common image of a curtain hanging between the Prophet and his scribes, sometimes seen in illustrations in the story of the Book of Mormon, is based on a misunderstanding.)10

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences ... ories.html

[_why me]

Like I said, why me, it's classic misdirection. That it is still working today speaks to its genius.

I think that the problem Runtu is the uniqueness of the event itself and what the witnesses have said about it. I am not just referring to what the 11 witnesses claimed but how the translation process was done. It is unbelieveable. And it requires critical thinking to come to an understanding of it.

For critics, the view is that critical thinking would get members to leave the faith. In fact, it is just the opposite if critical thinking is done correctly because when we put together all what was said at that time, we can only come to the conclusion that something mysterious occurred.

[_Runtu]

I think that the problem Runtu is the uniqueness of the event itself and what the witnesses have said about it. I am not just referring to what the 11 witnesses claimed but how the translation process was done. It is unbelieveable. And it requires critical thinking to come to an understanding of it.

For critics, the view is that critical thinking would get members to leave the faith. In fact, it is just the opposite if critical thinking is done correctly because when we put together all what was said at that time, we can only come to the conclusion that something mysterious occurred.

I'm less concerned about the process than the product, which is clearly not what it purports to be. That said, Martin Harris said Joseph, when translating, "would sit in a different room, or up stairs.” So, the translation process didn't involve plates, and at least when Harris was scribe, involved Joseph and his scribe in a different room.

I'm just saying that, if Harris's account is accurate (and I have no reason to believe it's not), Joseph could easily have been using a manuscript. The hat method would have been for the benefit of visitors and other spectators.

[_why me]

I'm just saying that, if Harris's account is accurate (and I have no reason to believe it's not), Joseph could easily have been using a manuscript. The hat method would have been for the benefit of visitors and other spectators.

No, I don't think so. No one would have been fooled with that gimmick. Too much at stake. To convince people he could not excuse himself and head upstairs and shout down the translation. No one would have been fooled with this and a brief hat trick before heading back upstairs.

[_beefcalf]

why me:

You are making the mistake that simply because you cannot think of a way that Smith connived the translation then the translation must not have been connived.

I can watch a Penn & Teller magic show, and, even while having absolutely no idea how they perform their amazing tricks, never make the mistake of believing it is anything other than a trick. Your stance is akin to saying "Hey! Since I cannot fathom how Penn and Teller might have made that woman move from the box on stage left to the box on stage right, then they must have actually used magic to do it."

And, in the end, you don't really need to worry about whether or not a manuscript was present during translation. It clearly was not present for certain portions of his translation... witness the telling blunder he made while "translating" Mosiah 16:6. It is likely he was winging it at this point, using his familiarity with the narrative to carry him forward while using extemporaneous verbiage (to his detriment).

[_Fence Sitter]

Remember this is the same Martin Harrris that tried to fool Joseph Smith by swapping out his seer stone.

[_Black Moclips]

What I find interesting is that Whitmer definitely links Joseph's prophetic ability to the stone, and that when Jospeh stopped using the stone to translate and give revelations, that is when the evil and error started creaping in. (see An Address to All Believers in Christ).

[_Black Moclips]

It is also funny that we can have discussions about magic rocks with straight faces.

[_Runtu]

It is also funny that we can have discussions about magic rocks with straight faces.

What always gets me is when apologists say that they believe Joseph Smith actually could find lost treasures and other items with the stones. I guess you would have to accept that he could if you're going to accept that he could translate with them.

by the way, welcome back, Black Moclips. Haven't seen you in a while. Hope you stick around.