The church's long campaign of persecution against apostates

[Anonymous]

Yes, the MMM. Rape references:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_a ... e#Massacre

Two teen-aged girls, Rachel and Ruth Dunlap, managed to clamber down the side of a steep gully and hide among a clump of oak trees for several minutes. They were spotted by a Paiute chief from Parowan, who took them to Lee. 18 year old Ruth Dunlap reportedly fell to her knees and pleaded, "Spare me, and I will love you all my life!"[10] (Lee denied this). 50 years later, a Mormon woman who was a child at the time of the massacre recalled hearing LDS women in St. George[11] say both girls were raped before they were killed.[12]

http://books.google.com/books?id=dDiH6l ... pe&f=false

I seem to recall another story about dying women being raped, but I can't find it now.

I think it is extremely unlikely that anyone was raped during the massacre. The source in Wikipedia is from Josiah Gibbs's early treatment of the event and while there are useful things in that book, it is also full of inaccuracies. Your second citation is from Juanita Brooks and gives her argument for why the stories of rape are probably spurious.

Although there have been cases where man has committed murder after rape, the circumstances surrounding the massacre make such an action high improbably. In the midst of wholesale murder surrounded by exited Indians, with more than fifty Mormon men in the immediate vicinity, such an incident seems fantastic. Such use of bleeding corpses is beyond the realm of the probable. In fact the whole suggestion of rape in this incident seems to be another example of how repeated suggestions and whispers may grow into more and more impossible tales, which are then passed on as fact.

I don't think you will find any contemporary historian of any camp supporting the alleged rape stories.

I'm also not sure that the MMM is really an example of mistreatment of apostates, either. While there may have been some locals who joined the Fancher party, this has been very difficult to verify and, if true, certainly not the central reason for the attack.

However, there are plenty of other interesting historical accounts of the treatment of apostates.

[_Buffalo]

I think it is extremely unlikely that anyone was raped during the massacre. The source in Wikipedia is from Josiah Gibbs's early treatment of the event and while there are useful things in that book, it is also full of inaccuracies. Your second citation is from Juanita Brooks and gives her argument for why the stories of rape are probably spurious.

I don't think you will find any contemporary historian of any camp supporting the alleged rape stories.

I'm also not sure that the MMM is really an example of mistreatment of apostates, either. While there may have been some locals who joined the Fancher party, this has been very difficult to verify and, if true, certainly not the central reason for the attack.

However, there are plenty of other interesting historical accounts of the treatment of apostates.

I did not mean for MMM to be an example of mistreatment of apostates. I only mentioned it because Why Me was getting too self-righteous about persecution against Mormons.

[_Blixa]

I think it is extremely unlikely that anyone was raped during the massacre. The source in Wikipedia is from Josiah Gibbs's early treatment of the event and while there are useful things in that book, it is also full of inaccuracies. Your second citation is from Juanita Brooks and gives her argument for why the stories of rape are probably spurious.

I don't think you will find any contemporary historian of any camp supporting the alleged rape stories.

I'm also not sure that the MMM is really an example of mistreatment of apostates, either. While there may have been some locals who joined the Fancher party, this has been very difficult to verify and, if true, certainly not the central reason for the attack.

However, there are plenty of other interesting historical accounts of the treatment of apostates.

I did not mean for MMM to be an example of mistreatment of apostates. I only mentioned it because Why Me was getting too self-righteous about persecution against Mormons.

I added a quote from Brooks while you were posting.

I think the rape stories are indeed impossible.

However, there is some recent scholarship on the treatment of dissenters that you should look around for.

[_bcspace]

When will they let my people go?

You just have a complex.

[_Yoda]

Buffalo, I haven't had a chance to read all of your sources, but I did read the last one concerning the rapes. Apparently, there seems to have been several different versions of that story. Here is the link:

http://books.google.com/books?id=dDiH6l ... pe&f=false

Because it is from google books, it won't allow me to copy/paste the section, so I apologize.

The gist is that although one person recorded the incident of the rape, there was an actual recounting of what happened by an Indian child who witnessed the event. He reported at the trial that the Indians actually shot and killed the girls before they could get to Lee.

[_Runtu]

The church definitely goes out of its way to portray apostates as evil degenerates, which really doesn't help strengthen families who are dealing with apostate members. Not long ago, there was a Sunday School lesson about people who leave the church (If I recall correctly, it was when the Joseph Smith manual was being used), and I remember that the class turned into one long attack on people who leave, assigning all the worst motives. I ended up leaving because I knew I was going to say something and cause a scene.

[_why me]

Stop disparaging the name of William Law. It took a lot of courage for him to stand up for what he believed what right.

His use of language was meant to rile the mobs against the Mormons. His design was not just against Joseph Smith but against the Mormon leadership. And his use of language was inciteful.

And inciting people through the use of language does not take courage.

[_Buffalo]

When will they let my people go?

You just have a complex.

When will you stop persecuting us? :(

[_Runtu]

His use of language was meant to rile the mobs against the Mormons. His design was not just against Joseph Smith but against the Mormon leadership. And his use of language was inciteful.

And inciting people through the use of language does not take courage.

You must think Sidney Rigdon and Brigham Young were major cowards.

[_Buffalo]

Stop disparaging the name of William Law. It took a lot of courage for him to stand up for what he believed what right.

His use of language was meant to rile the mobs against the Mormons. His design was not just against Joseph Smith but against the Mormon leadership. And his use of language was inciteful.

And inciting people through the use of language does not take courage.

Are we talking about Brigham Young here? Or Sidney Rigdon?