The limits of the Limited Geography

[_Simon Southerton]

In response to scientific research LDS apologists have retreated to a Limited Geography model for the Book of Mormon. Most Mormon scholars have now adopted Mesoamerica as the only reasonable geographic setting for the Book of Mormon.

No archaeological evidence
Mainstream (non-Mormon) Mesoamerican scholars see no evidence of the presence or influence of Old World cultures in pre-Columbian Mesoamerica, nor has material evidence been found that would indicate ANY contact between Mesoamerica and Old World cultures. This has been well documented http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology_and_the_Book_of_Mormon

No DNA evidence
Scientists have analyzed the DNA of 1,164 Mesoamericans (see table below). They have focused on mitochondrial DNA because it is easy to analyze and it is transferred down maternal lines, thus avoiding admixture problems (males dominated early colonizing parties after Columbus).


n= number of individuals tested in each population
(from http://simonsoutherton.blogspot.com/2011/12/where-are-lamanites-in-mesoamerica.html#comment-form)

The A, B, C and D lineages are derived from Asia and are not found in the Middle East. Eleven Mesoamericans had a mtDNA lineage that didn’t originate in Asia. Three had African L lineages, and three were not fully characterised as the studies were performed over 15 years ago using out-dated methodology. The author’s believed that these lineages may well be from the 4 major Asian lineages.

The remaining five lineages are all found in Western European populations. Exact mtDNA matches have been found in individuals from Spain, Portugal and Poland. Clearly they derive from the small number of European women who migrated to the Americas after Columbus.

You would think that by shrinking the geography that the Lehite influence in that smaller region would be easier to find. Instead we find that 100.0% of Mesoamerican DNA is derived from Asia.

No Lehites
Mesoamerica was selected by limited geography apologists as the most probable setting for the Book of Mormon due to the impressive civilizations that are found there. Science has now conclusively shown that Mesoamerican cultures and the people living in those cultures are not connected with the Old World.

Its time the Mormon Church faced facts and stopped imposing their myths on innocent native people in Mesoamerica. These people are not descended from father Lehi. http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/61817/Quetzaltenango-Guatemala-Temple-2400-youth-participate-in-cultural-celebration.html
They have much more ancient, meaningful and real connections with the New World.

[Guest]

Its time the Mormon Church faced facts and stopped imposing their myths on innocent native people in Mesoamerica. These people are not descended from father Lehi. http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/61817/Quetzaltenango-Guatemala-Temple-2400-youth-participate-in-cultural-celebration.html
They have much more ancient, meaningful and real connections with the New World.

You're tilting at the wrong windmill. There are many of us who don't accept the MesoAmerican model, and the Church has not even come close to adopting it. (The MesoAmerican model teaches that everything occurred in a small area. The hemispheric model teaches that the Lehites occupied all of the Americas, including MesoAmerica. The only official statements ever made by the Church on the subject relate to the hemispheric model.) Furthermore, I have advocated that the LGT springs from fundamental lack of faith.

As to the DNA issue, it is certainly an interesting one. I work in the field; well, I (my clients) hire archaeologists and geneticists for some of my clients' projects in Native American burial grounds.

But it seems to me that if God has the wholesale power to change the color of skin at the snap of a figure, He has the means to use a DNA tweak to do so. And, as my geneticists tell me, Native Americans have markers unique only to them and some Inuit tribes in eastern Siberia.

Your reference to Pres. Uchtdorf's statements is meaningless. The same sentiments are expressed in Arizona and Brazil. Perhaps even Alberta.

[_harmony]

Someone had best tell the Jews, the Christians, and the Muslims to quit imposing the Abraham myth on the world.

Seriously! Wars have been fought over Abraham, and it's highly unlikely he ever existed!

[_harmony]

But it seems to me that if God has the wholesale power to change the color of skin at the snap of a figure, He has the means to use a DNA tweak to do so.

Big... and unproven... IF there, Bot.

[_mms]

This one actually says "Children of Lehi" in the title:

http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/6 ... itage.html

[_Yahoo Bot]

But it seems to me that if God has the wholesale power to change the color of skin at the snap of a figure, He has the means to use a DNA tweak to do so.

Big... and unproven... IF there, Bot.

Of course; as is the resurrection.

But, if some Lehites are going to wake up one day and suddenly have dark skin, you'd wonder how that might have been done. Why not a wholesale DNA change? And, it is indeed remarkable that the same DNA markers are evident in Native Americans from Tierra del Fuego to the Inuits. Although there are scattered influences from other cultures, like Asiatic ones, there are genetic markers evident only in the Americas (and a few miles across the Bering Strait and, apparently, some place in the South Pacific.)

[_Simon Southerton]

But it seems to me that if God has the wholesale power to change the color of skin at the snap of a figure, He has the means to use a DNA tweak to do so.

So God could be using the DNA to trick us into thinking Native Americans have Asian ancestors? Nice one.

[_Yahoo Bot]

This one actually says "Children of Lehi" in the title:

http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/6 ... itage.html

The same language has been used with the Navajos and the Apaches. I lived in a stake with an Apache branch; I could see the same stuff said there by the authorities. A long way from Guatemala.

[_harmony]

But, if some Lehites are going to wake up one day and suddenly have dark skin, you'd wonder how that might have been done.

There is no "if" about this any more than there is an "if" about the story of Cain.

Good grief. And you're an educated man.

[_Yahoo Bot]

So God could be using the DNA to trick us into thinking Native Americans have Asian ancestors? Nice one.

Not at all. There is nothing in the Church that would say that the Lamanites didn't merge with existing folk. Indeed, the Book of Mormon seems to imply that. So, far from a trick, the presence of Asiatic markers seems to support some of the Book of Mormon's more subtle implications.