What single honest act would hurt LDS the most?

[_bcspace]

You consider them honest? That's quite an improvement from you.

I don't consider them to be honest answers from Joseph Smith. He lied. Surely you know that, bcspace. You're not stupid.

I actually believe your own (composite) testimony which I print at the bottom of all my posts.

[_Shulem]

I actually believe your own (composite) testimony which I print at the bottom of all my posts.

Then you are being misled by both Joseph Smith and the former Paul Osborne's views. The fact remains, there is no king's name in the writing as officially proclaimed to all the world in Facsimile No. 3. It was given as a declaration to all the world with the challenge that the world may try and figure out the truth for itself (see Facsimile No. 2 challenge). Well, the world did find out the truth. It found out that Joseph lied and his Explanations were false and totally unEgyptological in nature and scope.

You can't save the Book of Abraham, bcspace. I've learned that. I know better. When will you admit the simple truth when it is naked and pure -- sitting right in front of you? All you have to do is confess and say there is no king's name and the truth will make you free. Then you can say that the mighty god Anubis isn't a slave and that Joseph made that up too. Then you can put 2 plus 2 together and admit that it's a fraud. Then you are on the path of true honesty. Untill then, you are a liar just like Joseph Smith.

Paul O

[_bcspace]

and the former Paul Osborne's views

The non gay one?

You can't save the Book of Abraham, bcspace.

I don't have to save it. It's not under any sort of threat.

[_Shulem]

The non gay one?

What has being gay have to do with the price of tea in China or Mormon lies? I'll bet you wish you could be gay -- or maybe not. I don't know, I speak as a man, not a prophet.

I don't have to save it. It's not under any sort of threat.

No one has threatened the book. Joseph Smith just made it up. Just like he made up the idea that there is a king's name in the writing of Facsimile No. 3, and that the great Egyptian god Anubis is only a slave. Joseph Smith made all of it up. It's dead on arrival. No threats intended. You need not even defend it. You can't. Silly you, bcspace. ;-)

Paul O

[_bcspace]

The non gay one?

What has being gay have to do with the price of tea in China or Mormon lies?

The price of Gay Chinese lies?

No one has threatened the book. Joseph Smith just made it up.

You just tried to threaten the book via it's truth claims.

[_Drifting]

Kevin, how do you know God has communicated individually with you?

But as I stated in my last post, some time ago I made the conscious decision to believe that God does exist.

So I've chosen to believe in a deity that is capable of talking to me directly about that deity's will, and who wants me to know that deity's will.

I refuse to believe God doesn't want us to know God's will, and therefore I have concluded that the answer I got to the question I asked was in fact God communicating "individually with" me.

Kevin, thank you for your response.

I've selected some phrases from you post that will help me make my point to you.

You had already, in advance, decided God exists and that he will give you answers. If I decide in advance that the Book of Mormon is true and that God will confirm it to me through a burning in my bosom, then why would it be surprising when that happens?

This is how people believe that their decision to fly planes into buildings is sanctioned by God.

If God did indeed have the ability to talk directly to us individually why didn't He tell the Mormon Prophet that Hoffman was having him on prior to hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of tithing were expended? Why didn't he tell Oaks that he was defending a fake prior to him publishing his article?

If God has the ability to talk directly to us why didn't He speak to the Bishop of the nine year old girl who was sexually abused by her male Primary Teacher (during Church services) prior to appointing him by inspiration to a position were he could offend?

Warren Jeffs is currently bringing forth revelations that he believes have come from God speaking directly to him.

What question did you ask and what answer did you get?

NOTE: To avoid derailing this thread I have started a new one for this discussion titled 'Has God spoken to you?'

[_Shulem]

You just tried to threaten the book via it's truth claims.

Not really. The book is trying to tell me a lia via its author. I'm not falling for what is obviously false. The book threatens true Egyptology and makes a mockery of the Egyptian religion. No one but the Mormons who dupe themselves in testimony will ever fall for the so-called truth claims of that book. The Book of Abraham is trying to rewrite history and change the natural order of things. That's quite threatening!

Paul O

[_zeezrom]

I need to thank everyone who spent time on this thread. DarthJ, I just finished reading your words, which I found very insightful.

[_logjamislds]

Remember Jack Nicholson's famous scene in "A Few Good Men" where, in court, he says, "You can't handle the truth!" Remember Joseph Smith said there was much he'd like to reveal to the Saints, but they'd fly apart like glass, and couldn't handle it. (Sorry for no direct quote, but I think that's a good paraphrase.) Truth is, we can't handle truth, at least some of the more complex, higher truths. Christ told Peter, James and John to keep His transfiguration a secret until after He was resurrected. Paul warned of giving "meat" to those in the gospel who could only handle "milk". Look how many people go ballistic at the idea of continuing revelation in the form of a book translated by the Power of God, when the Bible itself says such will be forthcoming. You think the church should reveal all, when you argue and find fault with what has already been revealed. You can't even handle the "milk": you're most certainly not ready for the "meat". "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways saith the Lord; for as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isa. 55: 8-9. Until we can realize what it is we're dealing with here, get an idea of the whole picture and what is going on, we'll never be able to understand God and what is going on in His church, even on the most basic level, let alone higher up.

[_Sethbag]

What single honest act would hurt LDS the most?

That none of the Brethren have seen with their eyes the resurrected Jesus in the flesh, nor elohim, and have not so much as heard the voice of either with their ears or even seen a burning bush. (They too have only experienced the self-induced rush of emotions that COJCOLDS hijacks and instructs people is 'the Spirit' confirmation.)

I have to agree with this one. The books, schmooks, most members don't give a crap about the church's finances. But I believe that most members are convinced that the Apostles and First Presidency actually do talk with Jesus and receive their marching orders straight from his mouth. Or, at the very least, that as "special witnesses" of Jesus Christ they have been visited by him personally. Revealing that none of this is true would be devastating.

Even when Gordon B. Hinckley was admitting on national TV that he's never seen God, many if not most members who saw the interview still probably read between the lines and thought that he really had, but he didn't want to cast his pearls before swine, it was too sacred to talk about, etc.