Where will Hill Cumorah be after the Old Guard has passed?

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_Drifting
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Re: Where will Hill Cumorah be after the Old Guard has passe

Post by _Drifting »

liz3564 wrote:
Drifting wrote:Liz, your proposal for the Hill Cumorah topical guide entry would involve throwing Joseph under the bus...again...


Then Sorenson's article, which BC claims is official Church doctrine already throws Joseph Smith under the bus...as does anyone who engages in any type of theory involving a second Hill Cumorah.


Which is why the Church can't/won't change it.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_Yoda

Re: Where will Hill Cumorah be after the Old Guard has passe

Post by _Yoda »

Drifting wrote:Which is why the Church can't/won't change it.


My question is, if that is truly the case, then why have apologists even been allowed to kick around this second Cumorah theory to begin with? If this theory does, inevitably, throw Joseph Smith under the bus, shouldn't the Church be trying to protect the integrity of the prophet? It has certainly gone to extreme means to protect Joseph Smith's integrity when it comes to sanitizing his practices of polygamy and polyandry. Why not this?
_Darth J
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Re: Where will Hill Cumorah be after the Old Guard has passe

Post by _Darth J »

Another anti-Mormon simpleton who was incapable of understanding what the Book of Mormon obviously says was Marion G. Romney of the First Presidency. Unfortunately, this talk was published by the Church, making it official doctrine.

Marion G. Romney, October 1975 General Conference

In the western part of the state of New York near Palmyra is a prominent hill known as the “hill Cumorah.” (Morm. 6:6.) On July twenty-fifth of this year, as I stood on the crest of that hill admiring with awe the breathtaking panorama which stretched out before me on every hand, my mind reverted to the events which occurred in that vicinity some twenty-five centuries ago—events which brought to an end the great Jaredite nation.


He goes on to say:

As I contemplated this tragic scene from the crest of Cumorah and viewed the beautiful land of the Restoration as it appears today, I cried in my soul, “How could it have happened?”

The answer came immediately as I remembered that some fifteen to twenty centuries before their destruction, as the small group of their ancestors was being divinely led from the tower of Babel, the Lord “would that they should come forth even unto [this] land of promise, which was choice above all other lands, which the Lord God had preserved for a righteous people.

“And he had sworn in his wrath unto the brother of Jared [their prophet-leader], that whoso should possess this land … from that time henceforth and forever, should serve him, the true and only God, or they should be swept off when the fulness of his wrath should come upon them.

“And now, we can behold the decrees of God concerning this land,” wrote the ancient prophet-historian, “that it is a land of promise; and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall serve God, or they shall be swept off when the fulness of his wrath shall come upon them. And the fulness of his wrath cometh upon them when they are ripened in iniquity.

“For behold, this is a land which is choice above all other lands; wherefore he that doth possess it shall serve God or shall be swept off; for it is the everlasting decree of God.” (Ether 2:7–10.)


Being the anti-Mormon cherry-picker that he was, President Romney had this ridiculous idea that the prophecies about "this land" had some kind of relationship to the place where the Book of Mormon narrative happened.

In his anti-Mormon, childish, fundamentalist approach to the Book of Mormon, the semi-literate President Romney mistakenly (perhaps deliberately so) reads the Book of Mormon to mean that the final Nephite battle was also at the Hill Cumorah in New York.

This second civilization to which I refer, the Nephites, flourished in America between 600 B.C. and A.D. 400. Their civilization came to an end for the same reason, at the same place, and in the same manner as did the Jaredites’.


If you want to read more anti-Mormon lunacy and hysterically immature interpretations of the Book of Mormon by a member of the First Presidency, you can look through his talk where he explicitly says that the Book of Mormon references to "this land" mean the United States---as opposed to, say, Guatemala or the Yucatan or somewhere else down in Mesoamerica.
_Yoda

Re: Where will Hill Cumorah be after the Old Guard has passe

Post by _Yoda »

Awesome find, Darth! :-)

I think that BC's come-back will be that Sorenson's article was published after Romney's, and is therefore the more modern revelation.

However, even if we allow this reasoning to stand, it still doesn't explain why the Church has not clarified this consistently in lesson manuals, and on the Church-owned website.
_Darth J
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Re: Where will Hill Cumorah be after the Old Guard has passe

Post by _Darth J »

liz3564 wrote:
Drifting wrote:Which is why the Church can't/won't change it.


My question is, if that is truly the case, then why have apologists even been allowed to kick around this second Cumorah theory to begin with? If this theory does, inevitably, throw Joseph Smith under the bus, shouldn't the Church be trying to protect the integrity of the prophet? It has certainly gone to extreme means to protect Joseph Smith's integrity when it comes to sanitizing his practices of polygamy and polyandry. Why not this?


It's because the Bretheren have abdicated their touted roles as prophets, seers, and revelators. They don't even pretend anymore.
_Willy Law
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Re: Where will Hill Cumorah be after the Old Guard has passe

Post by _Willy Law »

Add Joseph and Wilford Woodruff to the list of prophets you need to throw under the bus.

"Zelph was a large thick set man and a man of God. He was a warrior under the great prophet Onandagus
that was known from the Hill Cumorah or east sea to the Rocky Mountains. The above knowledge Joseph received in a vision."
Wilford Woodruff Journal Ch 1
It is my province to teach to the Church what the doctrine is. It is your province to echo what I say or to remain silent.
Bruce R. McConkie
_Darth J
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Re: Where will Hill Cumorah be after the Old Guard has passe

Post by _Darth J »

liz3564 wrote:Awesome find, Darth! :-)

I think that BC's come-back will be that Sorenson's article was published after Romney's, and is therefore the more modern revelation.


Yes, because a self-appointed crank coming up with fanciful ad hoc theories can Trump the teachings of a member of the First Presidency.

The Church is true, though!
_Darth J
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Re: Where will Hill Cumorah be after the Old Guard has passe

Post by _Darth J »

Another barely-literate half-wit imposing a fundamentalist reading on the Book of Mormon, who could not appreciate the rich subtelties and nuances of the text like a self-appointed Mopologist could, was Mark E. Petersen.

Mark E. Petersen, October 1978 General Conference (Note: published by the Church = official doctrine!)

At the time Mormon recorded the details of this dreadful tragedy, he said that only twenty-four remained alive of all the men, women, and children of the Nephites. These surviving few were themselves killed the next day—with one exception, Moroni, whom the Lord spared to close up the written record.

When finished with the record, Moroni was to hide it up in that same Hill Cumorah which was their battlefield. It would come forth in modern times as the Book of Mormon, named after Moroni’s father, the historian who compiled it.


Remember, kids: when a living apostle of Jesus Christ interprets the scriptures in General Conference, he is speaking as a man!
_Yoda

Re: Where will Hill Cumorah be after the Old Guard has passe

Post by _Yoda »

Darth wrote:Remember, kids: when a living apostle of Jesus Christ interprets the scriptures in General Conference, he is speaking as a man!


ROTFLMAO!

In all seriousness, though, I would really love to hear BC's thoughts on all of this.
_Runtu
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Re: Where will Hill Cumorah be after the Old Guard has passe

Post by _Runtu »

liz3564 wrote:ROTFLMAO!

In all seriousness, though, I would really love to hear BC's thoughts on all of this.


Here's the thing. Anything published in correlated materials is considered doctrinal, as bc is fond of reminding us. When two correlated items contradict each other, bc tells us to go with the more recent stuff, which supersedes the older stuff. The problem is that nowhere will you find a statement from the church that says that newer correlated material supersedes older material in declaring doctrine.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
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