JSJr's Face-in-the-Hat: Troubling to the Faithful

[_Radex]

Radex, what makes you think Joseph Smith wrote that? Was that originally published in the Times & Seasons? Do we know if Joseph wrote it or dictated it? Have the words that are now in the POGP been altered at all from the original? And is this not referring to the translation of the Book of Lehi and not the Book of Mormon we have today?

I don't necessarily think he wrote it. It could have been dictated. The point is I believe the account. I believe both the seer stone(s) and the Urim and Thummim were used as translation methods. Pictures and paintings depicting either method don't bother me.

Facts:

The lost 116 pages was supposedly translated using the Nephite interpreters. They were taken back (per D&C10:1) after the supposd evil-doers stole them.

Darling thews, I don't dispute this.

The term "Urim and Thummim" was not used until three years after the Book of Mormon was published.

The Old Testament books of Nehemiah and Samuel both make reference to the Urim and Thummim, and they were written well before the Book of Mormon was published, if I've calculated correctly.

So Radex, while you continue to assert the translation method of the Book of Mormon is accurately depicted by the LDS church, what you fail to acknowledge is there are but two cards in your game. The lost 116 pages was done supposedly using the Nephite spectacles/Urim and Thummim, and the Book of Mormon was done using seer stones.

Well now, that's interesting. I thought, mistakenly, that the lost 116 pages were part of the gold plates and therefore part of the Book of Mormon. Who knew?

In the end, dear fellows, they're just pictures. There are much more troubling things in the world about which to bunch up your britches than mere artwork.

I commend to all interested in this topic the chapter in the book The Word of God, available online at Signature Books.

If you commend it, let it be so, but not without a reference to the review of the book from an LDS perspective.

Review of: The Word of God: Essays on Mormon Scripture, by Dan Vogel. Reviewed by Stephen E. Robinson.

It's so sad.

I was raised to belive Joseph Smith translated the plates this way. It wasn't until I was an apostate that I leared the "truth".

Funny how adults can deceive children...

Joseph Smith, as I have shown, used a couple of different methods to translate the plates. The Urim and Thummim method was but one of them. You were taught correctly.

[_zeezrom]

Hey Radex,

Hopefully kids in primary can start learning about both of the wonderful methods: the crystal goggles and the head in hat. Kids will love it.

[_why me]

Since it was in the ensign I don't see why they should be shocked. But it will be interesting to see just how they will react. If they have strong faith, they will see just how wonderful it was to have portion of the Book of Mormon translated in such a way. It is not easy to write a book with a head in a hat. Have you tried it? They may have already known it.

Yep. No one should be shocked because something was mentioned a single time in an Ensign article nearly 20 years ago.

I don't think that the LDS church is explaining just how it was done at all. I think that the bottom line is still the same. It was done by the power of god. What we do hear, I believe, is that it was done in various of ways but we don't know much about it because Joseph Smith said very little. And all that is true.

But yea, I can agree that it should have been mentioned more often in the past. It is all not that difficult to comprehend and since it was with the urim and thummin what should it matter?

[_why me]

Why Me,

It is wonderful. I haven't yet tried it myself because I was saving it for a last resort. I'm sure my cuz will enjoy learning that Joseph Smith worshipped a stone despite the defying of reason, as he put it.

Funny how exposing one's self to the deeper roots of Mormonism helps a person be more open minded about things like magic and stone worship. I like it!

I think that the Bible is full of 'magic'. There is no surprise there. I believe that one can say that god uses the tools necessary to help people understand. And that certainly happened for Joseph Smith and the witnesses.

[_zeezrom]

Why Me,

Nothing wrong with magic! I think God resorts to magic because He hasn't yet developed the technology to communicate with us in more practical/efficient ways. Magic is fun, sexy, and exciting.

[_Darth J]

I think that the Bible is full of 'magic'. There is no surprise there.

Of course not. That's because the Bible is full of Bronze Age tribal mythology.

I believe that one can say that god uses the tools necessary to help people understand. And that certainly happened for Joseph Smith and the witnesses.

Clearly, Joseph Smith understood self-serving revelations that materially benefited him, and having a harem that included of teenage girls and other men's wives. So that's what God gave him!

[_Darth J]

What we do hear, I believe, is that it was done in various of ways but we don't know much about it because Joseph Smith said very little. And all that is true.

And who we don't hear it ("various ways") from are the people who were there and saw what Joseph Smith was doing. And that is true, too.

But yea, I can agree that it should have been mentioned more often in the past. It is all not that difficult to comprehend and since it was with the urim and thummin what should it matter?

How's it coming with finding a contemporary witness who saw a translation method other than the magic rock in the hat, Why Me? Does your research seem to be going well so far?

[_Darth J]

The term "Urim and Thummim" was not used until three years after the Book of Mormon was published.

The Old Testament books of Nehemiah and Samuel both make reference to the Urim and Thummim, and they were written well before the Book of Mormon was published, if I've calculated correctly.

See: Red Herring

So Radex, while you continue to assert the translation method of the Book of Mormon is accurately depicted by the LDS church, what you fail to acknowledge is there are but two cards in your game. The lost 116 pages was done supposedly using the Nephite spectacles/Urim and Thummim, and the Book of Mormon was done using seer stones.

Well now, that's interesting. I thought, mistakenly, that the lost 116 pages were part of the gold plates and therefore part of the Book of Mormon. Who knew?

Thews is obviously talking about the Book of Mormon that was actually published, but thanks for dispelling that ludicrous idea I mentioned earlier about being deliberately obtuse!

In the end, dear fellows, they're just pictures. There are much more troubling things in the world about which to bunch up your britches than mere artwork.

Hey, you know, some gnat strainers and nit pickers out there don't find it very encouraging that The One True Church is disingenuous in how it depicts its foundational events. But as long as the Church is true!!!, who cares about things like integrity and honesty?

In summary:

When critics of the Church refer to firsthand accounts and want history to be told accurately, they are virulent anti-Mormon liars who are persecuting the Church.

When the Church misrepresents its history and instead presents a sanitized pseudo-history that ignores firsthand accounts by people who were actually there, the Church's honesty and integrity are unassailable.

[_Darth J]

Joseph Smith, as I have shown, used a couple of different methods to translate the plates. The Urim and Thummim method was but one of them. You were taught correctly.

I love to count! Ah, ah, ah!



Let's count the things that Radex has done!

Times he has repeated his argument by assertion since I asked him how many times he planned to do so: Two! Two, ah, ah, ah!

Times he has refuted the evidence Thews has shown that the "Urim and Thummim" idea was an after-the-fact insertion into the faith-promoting narrative: Zero! Zero, ah, ah ah!

Times he has proven that his quote attributed to Joseph Smith was actually written by Joseph Smith, after he was asked to do so: Zero! Zero, ah, ah, ah!

Times he has acknowledged that even if Joseph Smith said that (which remains unproven), Joseph kind of changed his story sometimes (see, e.g., the First Vision): Zero! Zero, ah, ah, ah!

Times he has "shown" an account by a person who watched what Joseph Smith was doing when he claimed to be translating the Book of Mormon who saw any method other than the rock in the hat: Zero! Zero, ah, ah, ah!

[_Darth J]

I commend to all interested in this topic the chapter in the book The Word of God, available online at Signature Books.

If you commend it, let it be so, but not without a reference to the review of the book from an LDS perspective.

Review of: The Word of God: Essays on Mormon Scripture, by Dan Vogel. Reviewed by Stephen E. Robinson.

Thanks for the link. I enjoyed Stephen E. Robinson's fatwa against New Order Mormons. But even more than that, I enjoyed reading the following statement in a publication by Mormon apologists:

The problem with scholarly religion, religion that has been carefully trimmed so that it conflicts with no empirical data, is that it inevitably makes scholarship the religion. And that is what is proposed here. Indeed, what if anything will we be able to keep of religious belief once we agree to be led by the scholars instead of the prophets?

Reading this statement in a Mormon apologetics publication pretty much killed, buried, and nailed the coffin shut on my irony meter, and then threw the coffin into Mount Doom, before dropping Mt. Doom under the continental plates.