John McLay; Brooke McLay

[_Willy Law]

Amazing how both BC and Bot have latched on to the gay angle. What is the obsession with homosexuality?

[_Aristotle Smith]

Bot,

The more I have thought about this, the more I think they should have waited to tell their story. Had they told this story after they were out of their financial troubles and had settled into a new belief system this interview would have turned out a lot differently.

Having said that, I think the church and especially CES put these people in a completely untenable situation. Had they been able to leave gracefully out the back door like Grant Palmer did, the interview would also have turned out very differently.

I agree with you that CES has to go. Or, they have got to make provisions for people to come in more easily and leave more easily, like most sane employers do.

The one other thing I will agree with you on in is point #8, they missed essential Christianity. And on that one I put the blame squarely on the LDS church and CES. They don't do a good job of teaching essential Christianity apart from the LDS church. In Mormonville, Jesus makes little difference and even less sense outside of the nexus of Joseph Smith, the current prophet, the priesthood hierarchy, "families can be together forever," and temple rituals. Sure, there are a few people who break out of this mold, but they are the exceptions that prove the rule.

[_Buffalo]

I agree that following your conscience may indeed lead you out of the church, but homosexuality was only one of many many issues discussed. But what Bot is trying to do is say that Brooke had a crush on a gay guy, which lead her & hubby out of the church. Typically dishonest mopology.

Your first sentence describes the second sentence so the dishonesty is yours. Also, this might say the gay guy is not really gay after all......

I'm not sure what you're even getting at with your first sentence. Regarding your second sentence, there is no indication of any romantic relationship there either way. Perhaps you should listen to the interview.

[_Yahoo Bot]

Bot,
Having said that, I think the church and especially CES put these people in a completely untenable situation. Had they been able to leave gracefully out the back door like Grant Palmer did, the interview would also have turned out very differently.

I agree with you that CES has to go. Or, they have got to make provisions for people to come in more easily and leave more easily, like most sane employers do.

The one other thing I will agree with you on in is point #8, they missed essential Christianity. And on that one I put the blame squarely on the LDS church and CES. They don't do a good job of teaching essential Christianity apart from the LDS church. In Mormonville Jesus makes little difference and even less sense outside of the nexus of Joseph Smith, the current prophet, the priesthood hierarchy, "families can be together forever," and temple rituals.

And, of course, I see things a little differently. These are mature adults who made their own decisions. He could have selected a different occupation. He could have declined to move to the sticks. He could have gotten out of CES as soon as he realized it wasn't for him. I mean, he claims to have had substantial doubts about the Church on his mission -- and yet, he goes into CES?

I mean, I love the Church and have a testimony of its mission. But I can say no and have.

[_Yahoo Bot]

I'm not sure what you're even getting at with your first sentence. Regarding your second sentence, there is no indication of any romantic relationship there either way.

Yes there is. But that isn't one of my points above.

[_Willy Law]

The one other thing I will agree with you on in is point #8, they missed essential Christianity. .

I think that a lack of reference to Jesus and Christianity is natural after going through a faith crisis. Once you turn that microscope from Mormonism to Jesus you find that the story of Christ does not hold up much better. That leads you to try and explain your world view in a personal way rather than through a Christian lens. Basically you are grasping for anything that is "real" as everything you thought was real is stripped away.

[_Aristotle Smith]

Once you turn that microscope from Mormonism to Jesus you find that the story of Christ does not hold up much better.

I've seen very few people who actually do that. My experience has been that people spend months on polyandry, Book of Abraham, Book of Mormon DNA, etc. I have seen very little evidence that most ex-Mos have spent any time investigating Christianity outside of Mormonism. The pattern I have usually seen is that Jesus and the Church are a package deal for most Mormons and are not seen as separable.

Just to take an example, there are scores of people on this board who can give me the basic issues on Book of Abraham, polygamy, MMM, the Book of Mormon, or whatever their pet issue was in leading them out. Of those, who can tell me what the four source hypothesis is? Or give me a rundown of what was the Johannine community? Or tell me the basic issues at play in the Council of Nicea? I'm willing to bet not that many.

[_why me]

And, of course, I see things a little differently. These are mature adults who made their own decisions. He could have selected a different occupation. He could have declined to move to the sticks. He could have gotten out of CES as soon as he realized it wasn't for him. I mean, he claims to have had substantial doubts about the Church on his mission -- and yet, he goes into CES?
.

And this was his contradiction. Here is what I see. I see a family that received many blessing as members of the LDS church. They also experienced many manifestations by the holy ghost. And in the end, they discounted it all and resigned over some issues such as polyamy and homosexuality.

Then, they wanted to come back to the fold. People bend over backwards to help them do so, including a GA giving them his phone number with a open invite to call anytime. They felt good with the GA during the discussion. But still give it all away by changing their mind about rebaptism.

If I were John I would have asked them who wrote the Book of Mormon and see what they would have said.

[_why me]

And, of course, I see things a little differently. These are mature adults who made their own decisions. He could have selected a different occupation. He could have declined to move to the sticks. He could have gotten out of CES as soon as he realized it wasn't for him. I mean, he claims to have had substantial doubts about the Church on his mission -- and yet, he goes into CES?

.

I have this feeling that they do have arguments over if they made the right decision about leaving the church. She seems to be still wanting to be connected in some way and attends church and still refers to herself as a Mormon. I think that she misses the connection to the church. And I am sure as money problems begin to show its head, more disagreements will follow.

I see conflict ahead if they don't get on the same page.

[_Yahoo Bot]

Just to take an example, there are scores of people on this board who can give me the basic issues on Book of Abraham, polygamy, MMM, the Book of Mormon, or whatever their pet issue was in leading them out. Of those, who can tell me what the four source hypothesis is? Or give me a rundown of what was the Johannine community? Or tell me the basic issues at play in the Council of Nicea? I'm willing to bet not that many.

I think that the more vocal ex-Mormons who post on boards are likely to have become atheists. I've had a long relationship with dissidents over the years, friends and acquaintances. I've seen many of them join the local Lutherans or Baptists

And I don't expect an ordinary Mormon, or non-Mormon Christian for that matter, understand the principles of Nicea or what St. Augustine taught. But I do expect them to know the Jesus of the Bible. I don't think the McLays do.