Translation Process for Documents

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_GR33N
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Re: Translation Process for Documents

Post by _GR33N »

beefcalf wrote:why me:

You are making the mistake that simply because you cannot think of a way that Smith connived the translation then the translation must not have been connived.

I can watch a Penn & Teller magic show, and, even while having absolutely no idea how they perform their amazing tricks, never make the mistake of believing it is anything other than a trick. Your stance is akin to saying "Hey! Since I cannot fathom how Penn and Teller might have made that woman move from the box on stage left to the box on stage right, then they must have actually used magic to do it."

And, in the end, you don't really need to worry about whether or not a manuscript was present during translation. It clearly was not present for certain portions of his translation... witness the telling blunder he made while "translating" Mosiah 16:6. It is likely he was winging it at this point, using his familiarity with the narrative to carry him forward while using extemporaneous verbiage (to his detriment).


Except that Penn & Teller doesn't produce anything of lasting value that brings you closer to God, strengthen your testimony in Jesus Christ, and provide spiritual and intellectual unity.

It's true, you don't really need to worry about what was present during the "translation". The result was The Book of Mormon which does bring a person closer to God, strengthens his/her testimony in Jesus Christ and provides spiritual and intellectual unity.

The only "blunder" in Mosiah 16:6 is a lack of understanding it.

"Speaking of Things to Come as Though They had Already Come..."
Then saith He to Thomas... be not faithless, but believing. - John 20:27
_Drifting
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Re: Translation Process for Documents

Post by _Drifting »

GR33N wrote:
It's true, you don't really need to worry about what was present during the "translation".


Why?

The result was The Book of Mormon which does bring a person closer to God


How?

strengthens his/her testimony in Jesus Christ


How?

and provides spiritual and intellectual unity.


How?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_beefcalf
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Re: Translation Process for Documents

Post by _beefcalf »

GR33N wrote:
beefcalf wrote:I can watch a Penn & Teller magic show, and, even while having absolutely no idea how they perform their amazing tricks, never make the mistake of believing it is anything other than a trick. Your stance is akin to saying "Hey! Since I cannot fathom how Penn and Teller might have made that woman move from the box on stage left to the box on stage right, then they must have actually used magic to do it."

And, in the end, you don't really need to worry about whether or not a manuscript was present during translation. It clearly was not present for certain portions of his translation... witness the telling blunder he made while "translating" Mosiah 16:6. It is likely he was winging it at this point, using his familiarity with the narrative to carry him forward while using extemporaneous verbiage (to his detriment).


Except that Penn & Teller doesn't produce anything of lasting value that brings you closer to God, strengthen your testimony in Jesus Christ, and provide spiritual and intellectual unity.

It's true, you don't really need to worry about what was present during the "translation". The result was The Book of Mormon which does bring a person closer to God, strengthens his/her testimony in Jesus Christ and provides spiritual and intellectual unity.

The only "blunder" in Mosiah 16:6 is a lack of understanding it.

"Speaking of Things to Come as Though They had Already Come..."


GR33N,

Long time, no see...

You are correct. Penn & Teller do not produce anything of lasting value that brings me closer to God, strengthens by testimony of Jesus Christ, and unites my spirit and intellect.

They do, however, produce much of lasting value which clearly and concisely highlights our human propensity to ignore facts and willingly adopt detrimental belief systems. Penn Gillette, in particular, in speaking out about his world view, assists in freeing me from the enslaving notion that I am fundamentally a bad person, and that only through my allegiance to bronze-age blood-sacrifice cult can I work my way toward (but never achieve) absolution. And my intellect, I am happy to report, is no longer anchored by the puerile concept of 'spirit'.

I followed your link. It appears that the basis for the argument supporting Abinidi's use of tense is not supported by Hebrew scholars. The link's bibliography references Thorlief Bowman's 1960 Hebrew Thought Compared with Greek, which was critiqued in 1961 by James Barr in his Semantics of Biblical Language. The scholarly consensus seems to be that Bowman's conclusions are not supportable. I won't claim to be in a position to decide for myself whether Bowman or Barr hold the upper hand in this argument, but I will say that for God to be willing to have Joseph Smith translate "Tapir" into "Horse" in order to avoid confusing us, it does seem rather strange that he would then allow such a Hebrew shift in tenses to be translated without modification. I'm going with Ockham on this one...
eschew obfuscation

"I'll let you believers in on a little secret: not only is the LDS church not really true, it's obviously not true." -Sethbag
_sr1030
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Re: Translation Process for Documents

Post by _sr1030 »

Simon Belmont wrote:
I choose neither of these options in this false dichotomy you have constructed. Joseph Smith translated utilizing the stone as a catalyst. It would not have mattered which stone was initially chosen, but it did matter that the stone was replaced with another. Seeing the wavering faith of his scribe, the Lord did not allow the impostor stone to act as a catalyst. It is all part of the plan.



If Joseph Smith used a stone as a catalyst, that would not be translating anything. If he read the gold plates in English via a stone and every word was correct, that is also not translating anything, it is reading. If Smith were able to decipher the Reformed Egyptian via a stone, that could be considered a form of translating, but the non-contextual words would then be his as the use of "adieu" suggests. LDS wordprint studies have shown this to not be possible.

It is simply a story made up by a few people who wanted to make some money. It doesn't matter if you call them witnesses, they really were co-conspirators, making their testimony invalid.

Why would God allow his true gospel to be absent from earth for so long? What did it profit God to do this? And....Why was their nothing restored with the Book of Mormon?

sr
_Runtu
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Re: Translation Process for Documents

Post by _Runtu »

GR33N wrote:Except that Penn & Teller doesn't produce anything of lasting value that brings you closer to God, strengthen your testimony in Jesus Christ, and provide spiritual and intellectual unity.

It's true, you don't really need to worry about what was present during the "translation". The result was The Book of Mormon which does bring a person closer to God, strengthens his/her testimony in Jesus Christ and provides spiritual and intellectual unity.


I used to wish that were true. I really did.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_MCB
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Re: Translation Process for Documents

Post by _MCB »

Please don't do this to me!!! Enough is enough!! :)


http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,386918
Huckelberry said:
I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... cc_toc.htm
_why me
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Re: Translation Process for Documents

Post by _why me »

Runtu wrote:
What always gets me is when apologists say that they believe Joseph Smith actually could find lost treasures and other items with the stones. I guess you would have to accept that he could if you're going to accept that he could translate with them.

by the way, welcome back, Black Moclips. Haven't seen you in a while. Hope you stick around.


I think that Joseph Smith thought he could. Also, we need to consider his age. He was young at the time. Maybe 19? We seem to never make allowances for his age. Missionaries today can seem a little goofy at 19.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_why me
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Re: Translation Process for Documents

Post by _why me »

MCB wrote:Please don't do this to me!!! Enough is enough!! :)


http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,386918


When you visit the excatholic discussion forum and make comments defending the faith there, please get back to us and tell us about your experience.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_GR33N
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Re: Translation Process for Documents

Post by _GR33N »

beefcalf wrote:GR33N,

Long time, no see...

You are correct. Penn & Teller do not produce anything of lasting value that brings me closer to God, strengthens by testimony of Jesus Christ, and unites my spirit and intellect.

They do, however, produce much of lasting value which clearly and concisely highlights our human propensity to ignore facts and willingly adopt detrimental belief systems. Penn Gillette, in particular, in speaking out about his world view, assists in freeing me from the enslaving notion that I am fundamentally a bad person, and that only through my allegiance to bronze-age blood-sacrifice cult can I work my way toward (but never achieve) absolution. And my intellect, I am happy to report, is no longer anchored by the puerile concept of 'spirit'.

I followed your link. It appears that the basis for the argument supporting Abinidi's use of tense is not supported by Hebrew scholars. The link's bibliography references Thorlief Bowman's 1960 Hebrew Thought Compared with Greek, which was critiqued in 1961 by James Barr in his Semantics of Biblical Language. The scholarly consensus seems to be that Bowman's conclusions are not supportable. I won't claim to be in a position to decide for myself whether Bowman or Barr hold the upper hand in this argument, but I will say that for God to be willing to have Joseph Smith translate "Tapir" into "Horse" in order to avoid confusing us, it does seem rather strange that he would then allow such a Hebrew shift in tenses to be translated without modification. I'm going with Ockham on this one...



I have not seen you around as I've lurked on these boards for a while either. Good to see you...

Believing in God, as I do, I'll choose the world view as shown in the Book of Mormon over Penn Gillette. Although I do agree with Penn's Libertarian views to a large degree. But I digress. my point is that I would rather strive and hope to achieve absolution relying on the Atonement of Jesus Christ rather than a guaranteed enslavement to the Father of Lies.

Whether the "Hebrew scholars" support it or not matters little to me. The point is that there is a reasonable and believable position to support Abinidi's use of tense and therefore your argument of Abinidi's "telling blunder" has a hole in it. Just as your assumption that God had Joseph Smith translate "Tapir" into "Horse". There is no confusion, there were horses here during the Book of Mormon timeline whether "scholars" want to admit it or not doesn't change the fact.
Then saith He to Thomas... be not faithless, but believing. - John 20:27
_beefcalf
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Re: Translation Process for Documents

Post by _beefcalf »

GR33N wrote:Believing in God, as I do, I'll choose the world view as shown in the Book of Mormon over Penn Gillette. Although I do agree with Penn's Libertarian views to a large degree. But I digress. my point is that I would rather strive and hope to achieve absolution relying on the Atonement of Jesus Christ rather than a guaranteed enslavement to the Father of Lies.

Whether the "Hebrew scholars" support it or not matters little to me. The point is that there is a reasonable and believable position to support Abinidi's use of tense and therefore your argument of Abinidi's "telling blunder" has a hole in it. Just as your assumption that God had Joseph Smith translate "Tapir" into "Horse". There is no confusion, there were horses here during the Book of Mormon timeline whether "scholars" want to admit it or not doesn't change the fact.


In your comment above (which I've bolded), I hope you can clarify...

Are you saying that horses, using the term 'horse' to refer to the species equus ferus caballus, were present in North, Central or South America during the period of time from 2000 BC to 400 AD?

My understanding is that it has been clearly documented that there are no physical remains, cultural references or other anecdotal forms of evidence to suggest that horses lived in the western hemisphere after their extinction some 8-10k years ago, and that no indigenous human culture ever used or domesticated horses prior to their arrival with the Spaniards in the fifteenth century. I would count this as a fact. The fact of the complete absence of evidence. The only source for such a counterclaim seems to be the Book of Mormon. And those of MI and FAIR who defend the Book of Mormon clearly agree with this sentiment, knowing the facts as they do. They attempt to bridge the resulting gap by asserting that when Joseph Smith/Mormon/Moroni wrote the word 'Horse', the animal actually referred to was 'tapir'.

Last thing: why do you put the word 'scholar' in scare quotes? Those who say no horses existed here during Book of Mormon times... are they not scholars? Or is it that you believe the are scholars, but because of Satan's grand plan to defeat the restoration of the gospel, they purposefully hide horse bones and destroy Mayan horse glyphs which might prove otherwise? How do facts get established? By the meticulous efforts of thousands upon thousands of researchers, archeologists and scientists, spanning numerous decades, cultures, religions and nations, or by a single, naked assertion in a 19th Century scripture with zero provenance?

Why do the opinions of scholars matter so little to you? The scholar (Thorlief) seems to have claimed that strange tenses in Hebrew translations are normal, thus providing an apologist a means of defending the Book of Mormon. You accept this scholar and his conclusions. James Barr, another scholar, says that Thorlief got it wrong. Suddenly, Barr is now a 'scholar' (in scare quotes)? And now you don't care what 'scholars' say?

Isn't your physician a scholar? I have to bet that he or she could not have earned a degree in medicine without a substantial amount of scholarship. It rather seems that the only scholars you distrust are the ones who's work might refute your religious beliefs.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
eschew obfuscation

"I'll let you believers in on a little secret: not only is the LDS church not really true, it's obviously not true." -Sethbag
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