More Questions Surface About DCP's Use of Sources

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_Doctor Scratch
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More Questions Surface About DCP's Use of Sources

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Thanks to a friend's recent comment to me, I was prompted to re-examine one of Dr. Peterson's classic polemical texts--a rather vicious article entitled "Text and Context." In this piece--which was written in the wake of the FARMS/Signature "kerfuffle," Dr. Peterson vigorously defends the use of ad hominem attack as legitimate:

In December 1993, Gary James Bergera, Signature's director of publishing, announced to readers of the Salt Lake Tribune that "Mr. Peterson continues to insist that character assassination and ad hominem attacks are respected hallmarks of the intellectual enterprise."36 But Mr. Bergera is wrong, and he is equivocating.37 By ad hominem "attacks," he obviously means the use of insulting or abusive language. I do not advocate such rhetorical attacks. However, the classical ad hominem is an argument, and I do believe, along with virtually all logicians, that ad hominem arguments can be legitimate, relevant, and significant—provided their limitations are clearly understood and their conclusions properly weighted. Obviously, they can be abused. But they are by no means invariably fallacious.


http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publica ... m=1&id=147

Later, Dr. P. goes on to suggest that homosexuality is immoral, and that homosexual "immorality" is at the heart of certain "anti-Mormon" works:

Pablo Picasso's paintings image the artist's checkered sexual career. Even Alfred Kinsey's studies of human sexuality, purportedly based on hard statistical data but now known to be far wide of the mark, seem to have been distorted to a great extent by Kinsey's own (possibly homosexual, certainly odd) personality.


And:

In the brilliant third chapter of Degenerate Moderns, entitled "Homosexual as Subversive," E. Michael Jones demonstrates the crucial and explanatory role of personal lifestyle not only in the traitorous career of Sir Anthony Blunt, but in the theories of John Maynard Keynes, the biographical writings of Lytton Strachey, and the novels of E. M. Forster. "Modernity was the exoteric version of Bloomsbury biography; it was a radically homosexual vision of the world and therefore of its very nature subversive; treason was its logical outcome. . .


And:

As their involvement in sodomy increases, so also does their opposition to Christianity."56 That denial of the truths one can know about God should lead to sodomy is in some sense a mystery," concludes Jones. "However, it is a mystery that can be fairly well documented, from Paul's epistle to the Romans to any objective view of modern British history."57 In any event, it seems clear that immorality (not merely of the homosexual variety) and intellectual apostasy are, and always have been, frequent (though not invariable) companions. (Joseph Smith's famous announcement of a link between adultery and sign-seeking is apropos here.)58 Sodom and Cumorah are apparently not compatible.


Finally, he wraps up his defense of argumentum ad hominem with this:

It must be clearly understood that I am not charging any particular individual, at Signature or anywhere else, with sexual im morality. I have used rather dramatic examples in order to make the case that writers are reflected in what they write. Human beings are not asocial, ahistorical, disembodied intellects. Clearly, considerations of the total personality of the individual advancing a theory, writing a book, or painting a picture may be entirely germane and legitimate in analysis of what that individual produces. Having once established that ad hominem analysis can be relevant, it then becomes merely a question of when and how much it should be used.


This is important, I think, because it shows that he's trying to downplay the conflict with Signature Books. What "treasonous," "apostate" homosexual associated with Signature Books might DCP be referring to? I'll leave it to readers to guess.

Instead, I want to backtrack a bit to examine the source of Dr. P.'s quotations. Towards the beginning of the second chunk of text I quoted, Dan cites a book called Degenerate Moderns by one E. Michael Jones. Obviously, this is the principal book supplying DCP with his evidence and his theoretical framework---in short, his basis justifying his use of ad hominem argumentation to paint people--including Signature Book authors, apparently--as "traitors," "apostates," and "degenerates"--including, one assumes, in books that have nothing whatsoever to do with these sorts of things.

So who is E. Michael Jones? I'll admit that I haven't delved too deeply into the man's life's work and biography, but I did find some things on his Wikipedia page highly provocative:

Wiki wrote:He was raised in the Roman Catholic Church, but lost interest in it in early adulthood. He became involved in the counterculture of the 1960s. He found little satisfaction after leaving his faith, and eventually returned to it after reading The Seven Storey Mountain by Thomas Merton. Jones then obtained his Ph.D. from Temple University and began to teach at Saint Mary's College, of Notre Dame, Indiana. To Jones' displeasure, he found this college to be what he considered to be (in the words of Michael W. Cuneo who interviewed him) "the antithesis of what a Catholic college should be", being pro-choice, feminist and secular. He made little effort to conceal his views, leading to conflicts with many faculty, his department chairwoman and eventually the college's president. His department, which viewed him as a religious absolutist, decided against renewing his contract after his first year.

[...]

Some of his critics have claimed his later work displays antisemitism, a claim that Jones denies, saying that any form of racism is against his Catholic faith.

[...]

Jones has stated publicly that he considers modern Judaism to be a wicked ideology, but that he condemns criticism of Jews based upon race.

[...]

In an interview with PressTV on the Libyan Civil War, Jones praised Muammar Gaddafi for running his government "in the interest of the Libyan people" and denounced the NATO intervention as "a looting operation...



Hmmm... Perhaps Jones could find a cozy new home at the Maxwell Institute? In any case, I suppose it's worthwhile to know what kinds of sources Dr. Peterson finds useful for his academic work. It's useful to know that this is the kind of text that helps to support his advocacy of argumentum ad hominem.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_moksha
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Re: More Questions Surface About DCP's Use of Sources

Post by _moksha »

I sort of agree with Dr. Peterson. When you run out of other viable arguments, name calling leaves you more to say than simply sputtering.

Pffft!!! See? That really doesn't suffice as a sufficient rebuttal. However, if I called the other advocate a prolapsed rectum, then I have at least risen to the level of Congressional discussion.
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_Morley
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Re: More Questions Surface About DCP's Use of Sources

Post by _Morley »

The full title of the Jones book is telling: Degenerate Moderns: Modernity as Rationalized Sexual Misbehavior.

___________


The Southern Poverty Law Center certainly doesn't have a high opinion of E. Michael Jones or his propaganda machine, Culture Wars/Fidelity Press. They say, in part:

Jones runs through all the usual anti-Semitic canards -- the ideas that "Jewish media elites" run the country, that Jews are "major players" in pornography, and that Jews are behind Masonry and the French Revolution -- but that's only the start. He also accuses Jews of poisoning society with thinkers such as Karl Marx (a devotee of Satan, says Jones) and Sigmund Freud (who set off an epidemic of sexual sin, he says). And he describes the World War II Nazi genocide of the Jews as "a reaction to Jewish Messianism (in the form of Bolshevism)."


...and...

Last April, in an article raging about a new president of Notre Dame University, Jones charged that anyone who went to a mainstream university would emerge "with a Jewish world view … and maybe a Jewish spouse."


Link: http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2006/winter/the-dirty-dozen?page=0,2.



Perhaps Daniel should look elsewhere for justification for his beliefs.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: More Questions Surface About DCP's Use of Sources

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

At the end of the day Dr. Peterson wears magical underwear.

He loses.

- VRDRC
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
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Re: More Questions Surface About DCP's Use of Sources

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Morley wrote:The full title of the Jones book is telling: Degenerate Moderns: Modernity as Rationalized Sexual Misbehavior.

___________


The Southern Poverty Law Center certainly doesn't have a high opinion of E. Michael Jones or his propaganda machine, Culture Wars/Fidelity Press. They say, in part:

Jones runs through all the usual anti-Semitic canards -- the ideas that "Jewish media elites" run the country, that Jews are "major players" in pornography, and that Jews are behind Masonry and the French Revolution -- but that's only the start. He also accuses Jews of poisoning society with thinkers such as Karl Marx (a devotee of Satan, says Jones) and Sigmund Freud (who set off an epidemic of sexual sin, he says). And he describes the World War II Nazi genocide of the Jews as "a reaction to Jewish Messianism (in the form of Bolshevism)."


...and...

Last April, in an article raging about a new president of Notre Dame University, Jones charged that anyone who went to a mainstream university would emerge "with a Jewish world view … and maybe a Jewish spouse."


Link: http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2006/winter/the-dirty-dozen?page=0,2.



Perhaps Daniel should look elsewhere for justification for his beliefs.


Wow, that's quite devastating, Morley. Perhaps in an upcoming DCP FARMS editorial we will be treated to quotes from Adolf Hitler's "uneven but fascinating book Mein Kampf." Really: am I alone in wondering why on earth Dan thought this Jones book would make for an informative read, let alone one worth citing in a "professional" publication?
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
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Re: More Questions Surface About DCP's Use of Sources

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

DCP wrote:However, the classical ad hominem is an argument, and I do believe, along with virtually all logicians, that ad hominem arguments can be legitimate, relevant, and significant—provided their limitations are clearly understood and their conclusions properly weighted.


lol @ logicians

Ad hom is a rhetorical argument, not a material or logical argument, why mention logicians at all?
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: More Questions Surface About DCP's Use of Sources

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

MrStakhanovite wrote:
DCP wrote:However, the classical ad hominem is an argument, and I do believe, along with virtually all logicians, that ad hominem arguments can be legitimate, relevant, and significant—provided their limitations are clearly understood and their conclusions properly weighted.


lol @ logicians

Ad hom is a rhetorical argument, not a material or logical argument, why mention logicians at all?


Yeah, that was a real howler. Did you click to see the source he cited for that?
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_brade
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Re: More Questions Surface About DCP's Use of Sources

Post by _brade »

MrStakhanovite wrote:
DCP wrote:However, the classical ad hominem is an argument, and I do believe, along with virtually all logicians, that ad hominem arguments can be legitimate, relevant, and significant—provided their limitations are clearly understood and their conclusions properly weighted.


lol @ logicians

Ad hom is a rhetorical argument, not a material or logical argument, why mention logicians at all?


Because it makes it sounds like super smart logician guys in the world's universities are toiling away sorting out the logical complexity of the ad hominem. You know, virtually all logicians think it's totally right up there with Modus Tollens or Hypothetical Syllogism.
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Re: More Questions Surface About DCP's Use of Sources

Post by _Sethbag »

I'm just a little disturbed that Dan actually wrote that the possibility of someone being homosexual really does have some relevance regarding the books they've published through Signature.

Kinda brings to mind "Well, [insert opponent here] is a homosexual. Enough said."

Well no, enough isn't said. In fact, even if the opponent were in fact homosexual, I'd argue that if the topic of conversation is a book that the opponent has written (as long as it's not actually about homosexuality), that "he's a homosexual" hasn't added anything at all to the conversation.

We all know that to a lot of Mormons, "he's an apostate", or "he's been excommunicated", or "he came out as gay", or "he's an anti-Mormon" are basically code words for "we don't have to consider a single word he's said, because it's all almost certainly a pack of lies."

Dan will know this, and I'm a little surprised he'd write what he wrote knowing that even if he thought he could make a properly nuanced use of ad hominem, his audience almost certainly would take it far beyond that, and he'd be guilty of poisoning the well.
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Re: More Questions Surface About DCP's Use of Sources

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

Doctor Scratch wrote:Yeah, that was a real howler. Did you click to see the source he cited for that?


I had the Walton book on hand, and flipped through the discussions, and it talked about how context and tone help determine the appropriate use of an Ad Hom, which is well within the realm rhetoric as used by modern language arts types.

Just seems like common sense would dictate that answer.
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