"The term Lamanite includes all Indians and Indian mixtures"

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_kjwallace
_Emeritus
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Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:50 pm

Re: "The term Lamanite includes all Indians and Indian mixtu

Post by _kjwallace »

Buffalo wrote:"The term Lamanite includes all Indians and Indian mixtures, such as the Polynesians, the Guatemalans, the Peruvians, as well as the Sioux, the Apache, the Mohawk, the Navajo, and others. It is a large group of great people." - Spencer W. Kimball

http://LDS.org/ensign/1971/07/of-royal-blood?lang=eng

That's the official doctrine. Don't let the apologists try to tell you otherwise. :)



First. Do you know what apologist means? "defender of the faith". You have categorically attacked those who spend years studying and researching in order to defend the faith that we hold so dear. Hugh Nibley would be outraged by your comment as would Neil Maxwell and James Talmage. FARMS (Foundation for Advanced Research and Mormon Studies), FAIR (Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research), and SHIELDS (Scholarly & Historical Information Exchange for Latter-Day Saints) are all apologists and are all respectable LDS organizations of scholarly study.

Second. That is NOT the official doctrine of the church! That was Kimball's opinion. Nowhere do I read, "thus saith the Lord" or "God has told me" or anything to hint that this statement was nothing more than his opinion. Every single serious LDS archeologist that has studied the ancient American cultures has invariably come to the conclusion that the Book of Mormon was almost entirely within the boundaries of Meso-America. The Lehi family was not alone when they arrived in the Americas. The Book of Mormon is full of clues to show you this, something I won't go into it now for it would take a book. Remember that Joseph Smith also said that there were men on the moon, but that was not recorded as scripture because it was his opinion and he was just a man when not in the capacity of being a prophet. A prophet is not a 24/7 job, or did you think it was? Hinkley was not much of a prophet (he was a counselor to the prophet) when he bought the Mark Hoffman forgeries as genuine documents or stated that before national TV that we do not believe God was once a man.

You really need to read, ponder and pray more. Don't leave it at pray only for God will not fill an empty cup. Try looking into FARMS or FAIR for more complete answers. It is actually a shame to tell your Indigenous friends that they are all Israelites. They were in the Americas long before the Lehites or Jaredites arrived. Some scientists claim they arrived up to 10,000 BC which may be partially true having migrated via the Bearing Straights but I believe that they have been here since the beginning before the separation of the continents. Just because Jospeh Smith and many early leaders believed that the American Indians were Lamanites does not make it true. It only shows that Joseph did not write the Book of Mormon (he translated it) and he himself did not understand all of it. I translated a manual for accountants from Portuguese to English once and knew it almost by heart yet didn't understand most of what was written. I am not an accountant just as Joseph was not an archeologist or anthropologist.

Don't forget that Moroni took the Golden Plates and wandered for many years into unknown territory. That means 1. the Hill Cumorah is any hill except the one in New York where the plates were laid to rest. In Mormon 1 Moroni says he will wander and in Moroni 1 he has begun his wandering, running as far away from the persecution as possible and still had a little room on the plates. Note he was no longer in the cave at Cumorah in fact he was doing his best to get as far away as possible. 2. North America was unknown to the Nefites or Lamanites. (Moroni had to find a place where the Lamanites would not find him and kill him.

All archeological evidence confirming the veracity of the Book of Mormon (and there is plenty, for my anti-mormon friends) has invariably come from Meso-America. None has been found in the US except the Book of Mormon itself, of course.

I also have some insights into Lehi's 7 year journey through the desert (China not Saudi Arabia) and his trek across the Pacific.
_SteelHead
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Re: "The term Lamanite includes all Indians and Indian mixtu

Post by _SteelHead »

kjwallace wrote:All archeological evidence confirming the veracity of the Book of Mormon (and there is plenty, for my anti-mormon friends) has invariably come from Meso-America. None has been found in the US except the Book of Mormon itself, of course.


This intrigues me. What is the evidence that constitutes this "ALL" ?

None has been found in North America, none has been found in South America.

0 + 0 = (wait for it)...................... 0

No archaeological evidence has been found that supports the Book of Mormon. NONE.

(and there is plenty, for my anti-mormon friends)


CFR

I also have some insights into Lehi's 7 year journey through the desert (China not Saudi Arabia) and his trek across the Pacific.


Lehi and Co. ........... in China. I can not wait to hear this.

Aside: Did I just fall victim to Poe's law? I can't tell if this guys is serious or not with stuff like:

Second. That is NOT the official doctrine of the church! That was Kimball's opinion. Nowhere do I read, "thus saith the Lord" or "God has told me" or anything to hint that this statement was nothing more than his opinion. Every single serious LDS archeologist that has studied the ancient American cultures has invariably come to the conclusion that the Book of Mormon was almost entirely within the boundaries of Meso-America.


And
Just because Jospeh Smith and many early leaders believed that the American Indians were Lamanites does not make it true.


The other day I composed a list of what WOULD compose Nephite artifacts. Please see: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22086
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
_Chap
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Re: "The term Lamanite includes all Indians and Indian mixtu

Post by _Chap »

SteelHead wrote:CFR


I also have some insights into Lehi's 7 year journey through the desert (China not Saudi Arabia) and his trek across the Pacific.



Lehi and Co. ........... in China. I can not wait to hear this.


Read all about it here:

http://ldsanarchy.wordpress.com/2011/12 ... h-america/
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Tator
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Re: "The term Lamanite includes all Indians and Indian mixtu

Post by _Tator »

Chap wrote:Lehi and Co. ........... in China. I can not wait to hear this.

Read all about it here:

http://ldsanarchy.wordpress.com/2011/12 ... h-america/


I thought all this was settled by Darth J in this thread,

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13858&p=342609&hilit=italy#p342609
a.k.a. Pokatator joined Oct 26, 2006 and permanently banned from MAD Nov 6, 2006
"Stop being such a damned coward and use your real name to own your position."
"That's what he gets for posting in his own name."
2 different threads same day 2 hours apart Yohoo Bat 12/1/2015
_SteelHead
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Re: "The term Lamanite includes all Indians and Indian mixtu

Post by _SteelHead »

Oy vey. Pure conjecture supported by other conspiracy theorists. It must be true. Where do I sign up?

(You mean the China guy was actually being serious?)

I love this type of logic.

It is possible because of the length of the trip that Lehi and Co. went to China berefore they went to (oops let me fix this) Baja California. Because it is possible it is true.

Ok following the same rules of engagement: I propose that by easterly, kind of sort of, and allowing for when the Liahona wasn't functioning correctly, that they actually ended up in South Africa. This is because South Africa is a good match for the land of Bountiful. They could have traveled to South Africa in the allotted time, and I am not the only one who thinks this. A South African launch point would have also simplified their navigational route to their disembarking point in Chile.

I am also going to propose that they did most of their travelling on the back of magical purple unicorns, and that said magical unicorns defecate clumps of solid gold and diamonds, which is why diamonds and gold are found in such abundance in South Africa.


Logic lesson:
Penguins are black and white. Some old TV shows are black and white. Therefore penguins are old TV shows.

Got it? Got it!
Last edited by Guest on Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
_BartBurk
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Re: "The term Lamanite includes all Indians and Indian mixtu

Post by _BartBurk »

bcspace wrote:
It is true that some, not all, apologists follow the Sorensen heresy and futher say that the Lamanites' descendants are in small area, but they're false and heretics.


The "Sorenson heresy" is also official doctrine and it so happens that it's publication is more recent than the OP reference. 1988 If I recall correctly.


You have to be kidding. Even the Sorenson article said it wasn't official doctrine. The disclaimer was quoted to you on another thread:

The purpose of this article and the one to follow is to sketch a few vivid examples of changes in how some Latter-day Saint scholars view the Book of Mormon in the light of new theories and discoveries about the past. These articles are not intended to be an expression of official Church teachings, but on the basis of my own research and study, I have thought this new information to be worth consideration.


Your continued insistence that Sorenson's article established doctrine is simply wrong. If there is any hope that Book of Mormon peoples are to be found in the Americas you would need to look at the Native Americans of the Eastern United States who at least have mtDNA which is Haplogroup X -- that doesn't establish they are descendants of Lamanites, but at least an argument might be created from it. Sometimes I think the apologists don't want to even entertain the possibility that Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdrey and whoever else was involved might have been creating a story based on their own backyard. Perhaps Vernal Holley's Book of Mormon maps based on a New York area setting for the Book of Mormon are just too disconcerting.
_brade
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Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 2:35 am

Re: "The term Lamanite includes all Indians and Indian mixtu

Post by _brade »

bcspace wrote:
It is true that some, not all, apologists follow the Sorensen heresy and futher say that the Lamanites' descendants are in small area, but they're false and heretics.


The "Sorenson heresy" is also official doctrine and it so happens that it's publication is more recent than the OP reference. 1988 If I recall correctly.


So, Kimball's statements and the Sorenson heresy are both official doctrine?
_BartBurk
_Emeritus
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Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:38 pm

Re: "The term Lamanite includes all Indians and Indian mixtu

Post by _BartBurk »

brade wrote:So, Kimball's statements and the Sorenson heresy are both official doctrine?


bcspace is just playing with us. He has to know his arguments don't hold up.
_Buffalo
_Emeritus
Posts: 12064
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:33 pm

Re: "The term Lamanite includes all Indians and Indian mixtu

Post by _Buffalo »

kjwallace wrote:
Buffalo wrote:"The term Lamanite includes all Indians and Indian mixtures, such as the Polynesians, the Guatemalans, the Peruvians, as well as the Sioux, the Apache, the Mohawk, the Navajo, and others. It is a large group of great people." - Spencer W. Kimball

http://LDS.org/ensign/1971/07/of-royal-blood?lang=eng

That's the official doctrine. Don't let the apologists try to tell you otherwise. :)



First. Do you know what apologist means? "defender of the faith". You have categorically attacked those who spend years studying and researching in order to defend the faith that we hold so dear. Hugh Nibley would be outraged by your comment as would Neil Maxwell and James Talmage. FARMS (Foundation for Advanced Research and Mormon Studies), FAIR (Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research), and SHIELDS (Scholarly & Historical Information Exchange for Latter-Day Saints) are all apologists and are all respectable LDS organizations of scholarly study.

Second. That is NOT the official doctrine of the church! That was Kimball's opinion. Nowhere do I read, "thus saith the Lord" or "God has told me" or anything to hint that this statement was nothing more than his opinion. Every single serious LDS archeologist that has studied the ancient American cultures has invariably come to the conclusion that the Book of Mormon was almost entirely within the boundaries of Meso-America. The Lehi family was not alone when they arrived in the Americas. The Book of Mormon is full of clues to show you this, something I won't go into it now for it would take a book. Remember that Joseph Smith also said that there were men on the moon, but that was not recorded as scripture because it was his opinion and he was just a man when not in the capacity of being a prophet. A prophet is not a 24/7 job, or did you think it was? Hinkley was not much of a prophet (he was a counselor to the prophet) when he bought the Mark Hoffman forgeries as genuine documents or stated that before national TV that we do not believe God was once a man.

You really need to read, ponder and pray more. Don't leave it at pray only for God will not fill an empty cup. Try looking into FARMS or FAIR for more complete answers. It is actually a shame to tell your Indigenous friends that they are all Israelites. They were in the Americas long before the Lehites or Jaredites arrived. Some scientists claim they arrived up to 10,000 BC which may be partially true having migrated via the Bearing Straights but I believe that they have been here since the beginning before the separation of the continents. Just because Jospeh Smith and many early leaders believed that the American Indians were Lamanites does not make it true. It only shows that Joseph did not write the Book of Mormon (he translated it) and he himself did not understand all of it. I translated a manual for accountants from Portuguese to English once and knew it almost by heart yet didn't understand most of what was written. I am not an accountant just as Joseph was not an archeologist or anthropologist.

Don't forget that Moroni took the Golden Plates and wandered for many years into unknown territory. That means 1. the Hill Cumorah is any hill except the one in New York where the plates were laid to rest. In Mormon 1 Moroni says he will wander and in Moroni 1 he has begun his wandering, running as far away from the persecution as possible and still had a little room on the plates. Note he was no longer in the cave at Cumorah in fact he was doing his best to get as far away as possible. 2. North America was unknown to the Nefites or Lamanites. (Moroni had to find a place where the Lamanites would not find him and kill him.

All archeological evidence confirming the veracity of the Book of Mormon (and there is plenty, for my anti-mormon friends) has invariably come from Meso-America. None has been found in the US except the Book of Mormon itself, of course.

I also have some insights into Lehi's 7 year journey through the desert (China not Saudi Arabia) and his trek across the Pacific.


Sorry, when a prophet of the Lord publishes something via an official church publication, it becomes official church doctrine. Nothing FAIR FARMS or SHIELDS (someone in there is a comic book fan) publishes has any authoritative weight whatsoever.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_BartBurk
_Emeritus
Posts: 923
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:38 pm

Re: "The term Lamanite includes all Indians and Indian mixtu

Post by _BartBurk »

Buffalo wrote:
Sorry, when a prophet of the Lord publishes something via an official church publication, it becomes official church doctrine. Nothing FAIR FARMS or SHIELDS (someone in there is a comic book fan) publishes has any authoritative weight whatsoever.


When I was a member of the LDS Church, I never believed an article in a church publication was enough to establish something as doctrine. This was especially true if the article was not written by the President of the Church and declared to be doctrine in the article. The various General Authorities contradicted each other too often for me to believe that.
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