It's Official - Stand and Shout the Gays are Out (link)

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_Buffalo
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Re: It's Official - Stand and Shout the Gays are Out (link)

Post by _Buffalo »

Droopy wrote:
Right, so fighting for equal protection under the law is also selfish. Got it.


Homosexual marriage has nothing to do with equal protection under the law. That is a misapplication of the Constitution to the problem in question.

Marriage qua marriage is not a federal constitutional "right" in the same sense as speech, assembly, or press, and the sophistries surrounding this issue, clever as they are, fail on those grounds.

Secondly, the homosexual movement has nothing to do with equal protection in any case. The movement itself has no other point than to radically and permanently alter societal perceptions of gender, gender roles, and the core meaning of marriage and family in pursuit of the legitimizing of homosexuality as a practice and way of life.

Nothing more.


Support your assertions with an argument.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Runtu
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Re: It's Official - Stand and Shout the Gays are Out (link)

Post by _Runtu »

If I might share something more personal, let me explain why I've come to feel strongly about this issue.

On my mission, I worked for six months in the mission office. My companion and I became very close friends, and after the mission we were roommates at BYU. He was about as straight-arrow Mormon as one could be, and he was more diligent in scripture study and prayer and temple attendance than anyone I knew. He loved the gospel, and he loved God. Sometimes I thought he went overboard in his piety, but I admired his faith and saw in him an example for me. But one thing that was obvious about him was that he didn't like himself very much. He was extremely self-critical and was constantly berating himself for his perceived failures.

I did not know at the time that he was struggling with homosexuality, and it is obvious in retrospect that he was in love with me. We roomed together for two semesters, and then I got married. He was teaching Spanish at the MTC, and he became friendly with another MTC instructor. They became roommates and then his roommate confessed that he, too, was gay. Apparently, they had sexual contact once or twice, and they both went to the bishop, who sent them to BYU's counseling service. He won't talk about what happened there, but given that it was the 80s, I can guess.

At the urging of priesthood leaders, he began dating women. He married a woman someone fixed him up with, and from what I can see, he no longer has to berate himself, because she does it for him. They don't sleep on the same floor of their house, let alone the same room. He sleeps in the basement. They don't have sex, and he pretty much takes care of their adopted children by himself. For a long time, he was completely faithful to his wife, but miserable. After his wife outed him as gay at a Relief Society dinner, his ward ostracized him.

Over the last several years, I've seen him on a downward spiral of self-loathing. He started drinking heavily, and he apparently has started hanging out in places to pick up a quick hand job or blow job. The last time I talked to him, he had crashed his car because he was drunk and had spent the night in jail. When I found out how much he was drinking, I told him I was worried he was going to kill himself. He replied, "What makes you think I'm not trying to kill myself?"

To me, how or when his homosexuality emerged is irrelevant. He is gay, and more than anyone I know, he tried to overcome his desires and be a faithful member of the church. Would his life have been different had he not had that crushing burden? Most likely, but I can't imagine it would have been worse.

That's why I care about this issue. These are people who want the same things I do out of life: love, companionship, intimacy. In my judgment, it's wrong to deny them of those things.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: It's Official - Stand and Shout the Gays are Out (link)

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

That's funny.

I had a Zone Leader who was clearly Gay. All I can say he acted out one day, and I talked him down from the ledge. He chilled out for the rest of his mission.

He's no longer affiliated with the Mormon faith. Heh.

He was a good guy, but man, I can't understand dealing with that issue and trying to live a lie. Bruuuuuuutal.

- VRDRC
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_subgenius
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Re: It's Official - Stand and Shout the Gays are Out (link)

Post by _subgenius »

Buffalo wrote:
Support your assertions with an argument.

Done
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/26/us/26 ... r=homepage
Justice Madsen wrote that the plaintiffs were not entitled to such review because they had not demonstrated that homosexuality is an immutable characteristic like race or gender.

keyword : immutable
to equate the chosen or defective LGBT lifestyle with the suffering and integrity of the civil rights movement for non-whites and women in the USA is insulting and laughable and simply highlights the LGBT's constant need for attention and flamboyant "look at poor me" claims.

You see, simply announcing the notion that you prefer to have sex with someone of the same sex as yourself does not entitle you to be a distinct "class", which is what the 14th amendment is all about. If that were the case then any person could exclaim they were a distinct "class" and assure those same protections (for example men who love and want to marry pigeons)
But let us assume the LGBT are born that way...so? People are also born "shy" but being "shy" is not a protected class.
here is how the 14th Amendment is expressed in the marriage law
Every person of legal age, excluding those deemed mentally incompetent to fulfill a contract, is treated the same by our marriage laws. We can only marry if we are unmarried, and if the person we wish to marry is also eligible to marry. We can only marry a person if it is consented to by the person we wish to marry. We can't marry a close relative. And, we must marry someone of the opposite sex.
Equal rules. Equal protection. Anyone who wants to follow the rules of marriage can marry. Anyone who doesn't, doesn't have to.
Remember one is granted a "license" to marry and just like driving there are requirements, exclusions, and benefits...all of which apply equally across the classes.

and once, again....you lose
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_Buffalo
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Re: It's Official - Stand and Shout the Gays are Out (link)

Post by _Buffalo »

Runtu wrote:If I might share something more personal, let me explain why I've come to feel strongly about this issue.

On my mission, I worked for six months in the mission office. My companion and I became very close friends, and after the mission we were roommates at BYU. He was about as straight-arrow Mormon as one could be, and he was more diligent in scripture study and prayer and temple attendance than anyone I knew. He loved the gospel, and he loved God. Sometimes I thought he went overboard in his piety, but I admired his faith and saw in him an example for me. But one thing that was obvious about him was that he didn't like himself very much. He was extremely self-critical and was constantly berating himself for his perceived failures.

I did not know at the time that he was struggling with homosexuality, and it is obvious in retrospect that he was in love with me. We roomed together for two semesters, and then I got married. He was teaching Spanish at the MTC, and he became friendly with another MTC instructor. They became roommates and then his roommate confessed that he, too, was gay. Apparently, they had sexual contact once or twice, and they both went to the bishop, who sent them to BYU's counseling service. He won't talk about what happened there, but given that it was the 80s, I can guess.

At the urging of priesthood leaders, he began dating women. He married a woman someone fixed him up with, and from what I can see, he no longer has to berate himself, because she does it for him. They don't sleep on the same floor of their house, let alone the same room. He sleeps in the basement. They don't have sex, and he pretty much takes care of their adopted children by himself. For a long time, he was completely faithful to his wife, but miserable. After his wife outed him as gay at a Relief Society dinner, his ward ostracized him.

Over the last several years, I've seen him on a downward spiral of self-loathing. He started drinking heavily, and he apparently has started hanging out in places to pick up a quick hand job or blow job. The last time I talked to him, he had crashed his car because he was drunk and had spent the night in jail. When I found out how much he was drinking, I told him I was worried he was going to kill himself. He replied, "What makes you think I'm not trying to kill myself?"

To me, how or when his homosexuality emerged is irrelevant. He is gay, and more than anyone I know, he tried to overcome his desires and be a faithful member of the church. Would his life have been different had he not had that crushing burden? Most likely, but I can't imagine it would have been worse.

That's why I care about this issue. These are people who want the same things I do out of life: love, companionship, intimacy. In my judgment, it's wrong to deny them of those things.


Thanks for sharing that. That really demonstrates, more than anything else, how the church's stance on homosexuality is so damaging and dysfunctional. Not just the church, but society. All the "ills" of homosexuality are created or at least stoked by homophobic attitudes toward gays.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Buffalo
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Re: It's Official - Stand and Shout the Gays are Out (link)

Post by _Buffalo »

subgenius wrote:
Buffalo wrote:
Support your assertions with an argument.

Done
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/26/us/26 ... r=homepage
Justice Madsen wrote that the plaintiffs were not entitled to such review because they had not demonstrated that homosexuality is an immutable characteristic like race or gender.

keyword : immutable
to equate the chosen or defective LGBT lifestyle with the suffering and integrity of the civil rights movement for non-whites and women in the USA is insulting and laughable and simply highlights the LGBT's constant need for attention and flamboyant "look at poor me" claims.

You see, simply announcing the notion that you prefer to have sex with someone of the same sex as yourself does not entitle you to be a distinct "class", which is what the 14th amendment is all about. If that were the case then any person could exclaim they were a distinct "class" and assure those same protections (for example men who love and want to marry pigeons)
But let us assume the LGBT are born that way...so? People are also born "shy" but being "shy" is not a protected class.
here is how the 14th Amendment is expressed in the marriage law
Every person of legal age, excluding those deemed mentally incompetent to fulfill a contract, is treated the same by our marriage laws. We can only marry if we are unmarried, and if the person we wish to marry is also eligible to marry. We can only marry a person if it is consented to by the person we wish to marry. We can't marry a close relative. And, we must marry someone of the opposite sex.
Equal rules. Equal protection. Anyone who wants to follow the rules of marriage can marry. Anyone who doesn't, doesn't have to.
Remember one is granted a "license" to marry and just like driving there are requirements, exclusions, and benefits...all of which apply equally across the classes.

and once, again....you lose


A scientifically uninformed court ruling from five years ago is hardly relevant. Try harder.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Droopy
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Re: It's Official - Stand and Shout the Gays are Out (link)

Post by _Droopy »

I showed some actual data to back up my opinion.


No, you didn't. You presented some PC social science theorizing and speculating, to wit:

low self-esteem is associated with unsafe sex, teenage pregnancy, aggression, criminal behavior, the abuse of alcohol and other drugs, and membership in deviant groups.


This vacuous bilge begs the vary obvious question of just how low self esteem itself, decoupled from a society that glorifies, supports, and celebrates sexual promiscuity, reckless hedonism, the unimportance of family, and prolonged emotional/psychological immaturity could possible lead, in a disproportionate manner, to all the things mentioned were the society in question not itself a primary contributor to making these compensatory pursuits so attractive and viable to those with poor self concept.

It is also quite obvious that people with very high, and indeed, pathological self esteem (narcissism) are just as likely to engage in the mentioned behaviors. Even more obvious is the observation that, self esteem aside, sex, drugs, and hedonistic indulgence are attractive, at some level, to most people because of core elements of human nature (which the gospel understands as inherent aspects of the Fall) that are independent of high or low self esteem.

Also present here (as is typical of western social "science") is the classic unexamined secular leftist reversal of causation, the author being transparently innocent of the degree to which "unsafe sex, teenage pregnancy, aggression, criminal behavior, the abuse of alcohol and other drugs, and membership in deviant groups" is a primary cause of low self esteem, which then feeds, maintains, and expands the behaviors listed.

The article also mentions low self-esteem being related to "irresponsible sexual behavior," including promiscuity. ("The Role of Low Self-Esteem in Emotional and Behavioral Problems," Mark Leary, Lisa Schreindorfer, Alison Haupt, Journal of Social and Clinical Psychology 14:3, 1995).


It probably does, precisely to the same extent, and perhaps more, than irresponsible sexual behavior leads to low self-esteem, which leads to a viscous cycle in which behavior alters and modifies perception, which then influences further behavior, which supports further negative self perception, in a spiraling cycle of self negation. Addiction follows a very similar trajectory.

Behavior cannot be extracted and isolated from perception. Hedonistic, promiscuous sex, adultery, drug use, alcohol abuse, violence and criminal activity etc. will lead inexorably to low self esteem. The author provides a chicken-egg argument and then sides with the chicken. The egg is the behavior that produced negative/pathological perceptions of self and self worth that produced further behavior in conformity with the expectations and assumptions generated by those perceptions - is never mentioned. "Low self-esteem" (a near religious preoccupation within the contemporary therapeutic culture, at least since the seventies) appears as an initial condition devoid of cause and effect relations with other psychological dynamics, not the least of which is the effect of the experience of behavior upon self perception.

And here's an article showing a correlation between low self-esteem among homosexuals and the negative views of the broader culture:

"Qualitative data from open-ended interviews with 76 African American men (aged 18–29 years) who have sex with men were used to examine the relationship among negative attitudes toward homosexuality, self-esteem, and risk for HIV. Respondents perceived members of their communities as holding negative attitudes toward homosexuality, and many thought the African American community was less accepting of homosexuality than the white community. There was evidence that these negative attitudes are internalized by some of the young African American men themselves. Respondents mentioned several ways that negative attitudes toward homosexuality could lead to lower self-esteem and psychological distress in young gay and bisexual men. In addition, respondents articulated several mechanisms by which low self-esteem and psychological distress might be associated with sexual behaviors that put one at risk for HIV. It is concluded that addressing and changing society's negative views of homosexuality are important components of a comprehensive approach to reducing the transmission of HIV, especially among young people in communities of color. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2010 APA, all rights reserved)." (Homophobia, self-esteem, and risk for HIV among African American men who have sex with men.
Stokes, Joseph P.;Peterson, John L. AIDS Education and Prevention, Vol 10(3), Jun 1998, 278-292.)


Take another look at this, John. This is pseudoscience, at best. Researchers ask a small set of homosexual men for their subjective perceptions of their social status and sense of place in the larger society? With no controls or any way of ascertaining the actual empirical basis or legitimacy of their responses, it's impossible to come to any conclusion at all regarding what these assertions actually imply for the society outside the subjective thought worlds of the participants in the study. How do the researchers know whether and to what degree the claimed link between their lifestyle and low self-esteem are accurate representations of reality and not carefully manufactured rationalizations (increased and maintained by group-think, in-group solidarity, and intellectual support from within the social sciences and having the imprimatur of "science") that significantly alter or ignore the actual psychological dynamics and processes involved?

I'm just saying that sadomasochism has been repeatedly shown to have a direct correlation with how sex was treated in the home during childhood.


I'm sorry, but where did you show this, repeatedly or otherwise? You made one argument by assertion, and left it at that.

The internal issues you mention are often related to the use of extreme guilt and control in the home, particularly when dealing with sexuality. Is there causation? I don't know, but there is definitely correlation.


And unless we know what "severe" means here (which I suspect means any substantive restriction upon sexual expression at all, including expectations of strict chastity before marriage etc.) the claim is useless (having lived through the sexual revolution myself, and having paid attention to its major claims, even as early as Junior High School, I have a good idea where these kinds of claims are going to go).
Last edited by Guest on Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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_subgenius
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Re: It's Official - Stand and Shout the Gays are Out (link)

Post by _subgenius »

Preface the following quote snippet with yet another attempt to pass anecdote for argument.
Runtu wrote:
To me, how or when his homosexuality emerged is irrelevant. He is gay, and more than anyone I know, he tried to overcome his desires and be a faithful member of the church. Would his life have been different had he not had that crushing burden? Most likely, but I can't imagine it would have been worse.

That's why I care about this issue. These are people who want the same things I do out of life: love, companionship, intimacy. In my judgment, it's wrong to deny them of those things.

What about the feller that wrestles with his deep desire to kill teenage girls in his basement?
He tried to be a good person, but the crushing burden...blah blah blah

I do not understand your logic with your anecdote.

It is well known that Sigmund Freud considered homosexual behavior as a natural stage in normal human sexual development...and adult homosexuals had simply suffered from a retardation of that development, for whatever cause.
A psychological abnormality does not necessarily entitle one to special permissions, it may merit compassion and/or treatment but it in no way offers them permission for their behavior.

And no one is denying anyone, regardless of sexual orientation, the ability to have "love, companionship, intimacy"....but it is, in my judgment and as supported by science and morality, wrong to expect society to support and subsidize same-sex marriage.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_Molok
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Re: It's Official - Stand and Shout the Gays are Out (link)

Post by _Molok »

And now homosexuality is analogous to murder.
_subgenius
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Re: It's Official - Stand and Shout the Gays are Out (link)

Post by _subgenius »

Buffalo wrote:
A scientifically uninformed court ruling from five years ago is hardly relevant. Try harder.

ha ha ha...red letter day! you got nothing.

hardly relevant? wow, i guess since Roe v Wade was in 1973...that ruling must be way irrelevant in your exceptional legal mind.
face it, you asked for it....and you got it.
ha ha ha
you still lose
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
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