JSJr's Face-in-the-Hat: Troubling to the Faithful

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Hoo boy.

http://www.mormonmovieguy.com/2011/08/j ... eview.html

[_Radex]

The one question you've consistently avoided is the following:

Again Radex, do you concede the fact that the Urim and Thummim/Nephite interpreters were lost (per LDS doctrine), and every single published word of the Book of Mormon was translated using Joseph Smith seer stone(s) placed in his stove-pipe hat?

Is this the point where you exit the discussion Radex? Is this the point you again fail to define what your supposed point is? Is a simple question too hard for you to simply answer?

This is not the point where I exit the discussion, my good thews; though it may be unfortunate in your eyes. The 116 pages and the Book of Mormon are the same. Extracting a part from a whole is an error in reasoning. When you apply the qualifier published Book of Mormon, well then, yes; when that much precision is implemented your statement is correct. I don't think your laser-like precision is necessary, however, and so I am comfortable saying that Joseph Smith used two primary translation methods (which is true).

[_Darth J]

I am comfortable saying that Joseph Smith used two primary translation methods (which is true).

Then it should be no trouble at all to find a statement from Martin Harris saying he saw Joseph Smith using the Nephite interpreters to translate the Book of Mormon. Remember, we are not look for a statement that an object that Joseph Smith claimed to be the Nephite interpreters simply existed, but a statement by Martin Harris saying he saw Joseph Smith using them to translate the Book of Mormon.

ETA: Here, I'll even spot you a hearsay statement attributed to Martin Harris--

http://fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Tr ... /1829-1835

“In the autumn of 1827 a man named Joseph Smith of Manchester, in Ontario County, said that he had been visited by the spirit of the Almighty in a dream, and informed that in a certain hill in that town was deposited a Golden Bible, containing an ancient record of divine origin. He states that after the third visit from the same spirit in a dream he proceeded to the spot, removed earth, and there found the Bible, together with a large pair of spectacles. He had also been directed to let no mortal see them under the penalty of immediate death, which injunction he steadfastly adheres to. The treasure consisted of a number of gold plates, about 8 inches long, 6 wide, and one eighth of an inch thick, on which were engraved hieroglyphics. By placing the spectacles in a hat and looking into it, Smith interprets the characters into the English language.[”]

But Edward Stevenson quotes Martin Harris as saying that even though Joseph Smith had the Urim and Thummim, he used the seer stone to translate:

Martin Harris related an instance that occurred during the time that he wrote that portion of the translation of the Book of Mormon, which he was favored to write direct from the mouth of the Prophet Joseph Smith. He said that the Prophet possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as from the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he then used the seer stone.

http://www.byui.edu/onlinelearning/cour ... Harris.htm

Martin explained the translation as follows: By aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the prophet and written by Martin, and when finished he would say, 'Written,' and if correctly written, that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used.

But if you prefer a newspaper account that does not directly quote Martin Harris over a pro-LDS source who does directly quote him, let's ask this: have you seen any pictures lately published by the Church of Joseph Smith with the spectacles in a hat?

Note: this is not spectacles in a hat:

[_thews]

The one question you've consistently avoided is the following:

Again Radex, do you concede the fact that the Urim and Thummim/Nephite interpreters were lost (per LDS doctrine), and every single published word of the Book of Mormon was translated using Joseph Smith seer stone(s) placed in his stove-pipe hat?

Is this the point where you exit the discussion Radex? Is this the point you again fail to define what your supposed point is? Is a simple question too hard for you to simply answer?

This is not the point where I exit the discussion, my good thews; though it may be unfortunate in your eyes. The 116 pages and the Book of Mormon are the same.

As you again fail to answer the question, I applaud you for continuing to respond. The word "published" is missing from your logic, as the lost 116 pages had to be translated again... you know, after the Nephite interpreters were taken back. The second time they (lost 116 pages) were translated, it was done with seer stone in hat. To then claim the lost pages and Book of Mormon are "the same" when discussing the difference between the Urim and Thummim/Nephite interpreters and seer stones, is a deceptive ruse, as they are not the same when the translation method is what's being discussed.

Extracting a part from a whole is an error in reasoning.

Injecting distortion and ignoring a part of the whole is also an error in reasoning.

When you apply the qualifier published Book of Mormon, well then, yes; when that much precision is implemented your statement is correct. I don't think your laser-like precision is necessary, however, and so I am comfortable saying that Joseph Smith used two primary translation methods (which is true).

This discussion is focused on the Book of Mormon and how it was translated. In the above, you first state you agree that every published word of the Book of Mormon was translated using seer stones, and then again state there were two primary translation methods. It doesn't take "laser-like precision" to conclude the correct answer, but it does take manufactured distortion to imply there is more than one answer.

The crux of this Radex is the use of Urim and Thummim. When conflate is used to call something other than what it actually is, the discussion is rooted in whether or not it's necessary or warranted. When I asked you when Joseph Smith obtained the Urim and Thummim and when he lost them (if they were lost), you didn't answer. In your above response you continue to claim there were two primary translation methods of the published Book of Mormon. For clarification, do you acknowledge the Urim and Thummim were not used to translate the published end result?

[_consiglieri]

I had an interesting discussion with our ward seminary teacher last Saturday morning when our families were cleaning the ward building together.

For some reason, the subject came around to the contents of Joseph Fielding Smith's vault in the First Presidency Office (which I had learned about through reading David O McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism).

I mentioned that contained in the vault were both of Joseph Smith's seer stones.

The seminary teacher gave me a blank look.

"You know, the white one and the chocolate colored one?"

Same look.

"The chocolate colored one that was shaped like an egg?"

Nothing.

"The one found by Joseph while digging a well?"


She asked if I were talking about the Urim and Thummim.

I told her these were different.

She said she had never heard about Joseph using a seer stone.

I left it there, not bothering to tell her how he used them to translate the Book of Mormon.

Didn't seem prudent.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_Darth J]

"The chocolate colored one that was shaped like an egg?"

Seer stones are delicious.

[_Equality]

I had an interesting discussion with our ward seminary teacher last Saturday morning when our families were cleaning the ward building together.

For some reason, the subject came around to the contents of Joseph Fielding Smith's vault in the First Presidency Office (which I had learned about through reading David O McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism).

I mentioned that contained in the vault were both of Joseph Smith's seer stones.

The seminary teacher gave me a blank look.

"You know, the white one and the chocolate colored one?"

Same look.

"The chocolate colored one that was shaped like an egg?"

Nothing.

"The one found by Joseph while digging a well?"


She asked if I were talking about the Urim and Thummim.

I told her these were different.

She said she had never heard about Joseph using a seer stone.

I left it there, not bothering to tell her how he used them to translate the Book of Mormon.

Didn't seem prudent.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I think runtu the other day said the stone used to translate was the green one. Is there a clear summary of the different seer stones Smith had and which one(s) was(were) actually used in the "translation"?

[_Themis]

I had an interesting discussion with our ward seminary teacher last Saturday morning when our families were cleaning the ward building together.

For some reason, the subject came around to the contents of Joseph Fielding Smith's vault in the First Presidency Office (which I had learned about through reading David O McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism).

I mentioned that contained in the vault were both of Joseph Smith's seer stones.

The seminary teacher gave me a blank look.

"You know, the white one and the chocolate colored one?"

Same look.

"The chocolate colored one that was shaped like an egg?"

Nothing.

"The one found by Joseph while digging a well?"


She asked if I were talking about the Urim and Thummim.

I told her these were different.

She said she had never heard about Joseph using a seer stone.

I left it there, not bothering to tell her how he used them to translate the Book of Mormon.

Didn't seem prudent.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

You are evil. You know they may look it up. :)

[_thews]

I think runtu the other day said the stone used to translate was the green one. Is there a clear summary of the different seer stones Smith had and which one(s) was(were) actually used in the "translation"?

The green one was owned by Sally Chase. Joseph Smith used it to "see" his white one. This was about the time his mentor, Luman Walter, taught him how to use occult power. The brown stone was found when digging a well for Willard Chase. Chase loaned it him, but when he asked for it back, Joseph Smith refused to give it.

Question to those knowledgeable about the law. Could the Chase family sue the LDS church to reclaim their stone?