Query for Joseph Antley, Brant Gardner, Thews, etc.

[_sock puppet]

During the 1985 Salamander Letter debacle, Apostle Oaks explained the use by JSJr, during his time, of the term white salamander to be a reference to 'a mythical being thought to be able to live in fire', as an attempt by JSJr to explain the visage of Nephi (corrected later and for decades now believed to be Moroni) that appeared to JSJr in the process of getting the gold plates--at least as being ostensibly related by Martin Harris in a 'letter' to W W Phelps, which it turns out Mark Hofmann forged.

My question is to those that may be read up on the 'folk magic' of the day and locale in which JSJr grew up, in and around Palmyra in the 1810s and 1820s. Have any of you ever run across writings that emanate from that geographical area (broadened of course to include that area east and south east of the Great Lakes) during such era, in which the author used the term 'salamander' other than in a context describing a tailed amphibian?

I am wondering how broad geographically and how far back in time distant from upstate New York in the early part of the 19th Century that Dallin Oaks had to reach for his 'salamander' explanation.

[_sock puppet]

While yet interested in Antley, Gardner, Thews, et al.'s input on the use of the term 'salamander' to mean the mythical creature that lives in and is not consumed by fire--the apologetic of Apostle Oaks in August 1985 for 'white salamander' then thought perhaps being a JSJr description of Moroni the angel, related by Martin Harris to W W Phelps in a letter--in and about Palmyra NY in the early part of the 19th Century, I thought I would add here a bit of what I've found about the use of the term as such, historically.

There is this wikipedia entry. The Salamander picture shown there is believed to be from a 16th Century woodcut, and identified as a portrayal of "the Pope as a monster".

Since Oaks was making this apologetic, did he think that JSJr likened the angel Moroni to the creature depicted in this picture that had been in circulation for one to two centuries by JSJr's time?

Did Oaks think that JSJr having perhaps called Moroni a white salamander meant that JSJr equated Moroni with "the Pope as a monster"?

It seems that Oaks was stepping back into the proverbial pile of apologetic crap by his efforts to SAVE JOSEPH!

Also note:

In Medieval European bestiaries, fanciful depictions of salamanders include "a satyr-like creature in a circular wooden tub" (8th century), "a worm penetrating flames" (12th century), "a winged dog" (13th century), and "a small bird in flames" (13th century).

[_thews]

The salamander letter is a subject that I'm not really interested in, because when forgery is involved it negates the entire mess. If something were to be produced that really was authentic indicating Joseph Smith claimed to speak to a salamander, no one would buy that it was authentic. The only thing to conclude from it in my opinion is that the church tried to hide its contents. They haven't released the EAG or papyrus, so this is sort of a small fish.

[_hans castorp]

I'm not one of the above, but there are some contemporary references to salamanders (the form of the elemental spirit of fire) in Quinn's Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, 2nd ed., pp. 152 ff.

hc

[_Joseph Antley]

I'm not one of the above, but there are some contemporary references to salamanders (the form of the elemental spirit of fire) in Quinn's Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, 2nd ed., pp. 152 ff.

hc

+1. Quinn is probably the source you want.

[_LDSToronto]

I'm not one of the above, but there are some contemporary references to salamanders (the form of the elemental spirit of fire) in Quinn's Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, 2nd ed., pp. 152 ff.

hc

+1. Quinn is probably the source you want.

+1. Ya, that's what I was going to say as well. No, really, I was. Seriously.

H.

[_Blixa]

+1. Ya, that's what I was going to say as well. No, really, I was. Seriously.

H.

Me, too.