Why did Brigham Young believe Adam was God?

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_bcspace
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Re: Why did Brigham Young believe Adam was God?

Post by _bcspace »

Only in your own opinion. I'm pretty sure it reads Adam is god in the quotes from BY and no where is there a Jr or a Sr, but feel free to keep proclaiming your hypothesis as fact.


I've given a few quotes. They don't seem to be consistent with Adam God at all assuming that Adam God teaches that God the Father, the same who begat Jesus Christ, is also the Adam who partook of the forbidden fruit and fell. I notice you have not explained or addressed these quotes.
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_consiglieri
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Re: Why did Brigham Young believe Adam was God?

Post by _consiglieri »

bcspace wrote:I've not quibbled about the name but rather have merely distinguished between a now discredited hypothesis of what many have said what BY taught (Adam God) and what BY actually taught (Adam Sr/Jr).


Did Bruce R. McConkie admit Brigham Young taught the Adam-God Theory?

A simple yes or no will suffice.
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_consiglieri
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Re: Why did Brigham Young believe Adam was God?

Post by _consiglieri »

bcspace wrote:I've given a few quotes. They don't seem to be consistent with Adam God at all assuming that Adam God teaches that God the Father, the same who begat Jesus Christ, is also the Adam who partook of the forbidden fruit and fell. I notice you have not explained or addressed these quotes.


The only reason you don't understand this is because you refuse to understand this.

Brigham Young taught that Adam lived in mortality on a previous world.

Elohim was his God on that world.

After being resurrected and exalted from that world, Adam created this world (under the direction of Elohim and Jehovah) and begat the spirits of all those who come to this world with his wife (or one of his wives), Eve.

Adam and Eve then came to this earth and partook of the fruit of the tree which worked a change in their physical makeup making them fallen and able to begin the process of begetting physical, mortal bodies for their spirit children.

Brigham also taught that Adam (our Father and our God) came to Mary and begot the mortal body of Jesus Christ.

I mean, this IS the Adam-God Theory.

Hope this helps.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_SteelHead
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Re: Why did Brigham Young believe Adam was God?

Post by _SteelHead »

Where in any of your quotes was a Jr or Sr? I must have missed it.
But that Adam is the only god we have anything to do with is common to the teaching. Hence Adam is god.

The inconsistency with the rest of Mormon doctrine is no more incogruous than numerous other prophetic teachings. Such as polygamy occuring before the restoration of the sealing power. Incogruous with the teachings on ploygamy, but still occured. I'm not here to explain away the inconsistencies..... You are.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
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_consiglieri
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Re: Why did Brigham Young believe Adam was God?

Post by _consiglieri »

SteelHead wrote:Where in any of your quotes was a Jr or Sr? I must have missed it.


You didn't miss it, SH. There are no such quotes.

I want to be clear that when I called it a lame theory, it was only after having read Elden Watson's lengthy paper setting forth his two-Adam theory and trying to support.

Guess what even Watson says at the end of his paper?

He admits there are no such statements from Brigham Young.

This is a leaky vessel BC is trying to bail.

The only virtue to the two-Adam theory, if virtue it be, is that it makes Brigham Young not contradict current Mormon Doctrine on the subject.

That is the only reason it came into existence.

It is the only reason it continues to be defended by a desperate minority.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_bcspace
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Re: Why did Brigham Young believe Adam was God?

Post by _bcspace »

Where in any of your quotes was a Jr or Sr? I must have missed it.


Page 1. Posts 11 and 14.
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_bcspace
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Re: Why did Brigham Young believe Adam was God?

Post by _bcspace »

You didn't miss it, SH. There are no such quotes.

I want to be clear that when I called it a lame theory, it was only after having read Elden Watson's lengthy paper setting forth his two-Adam theory and trying to support.


Even the mighty paper tiger consig fears to address how Adam God can still stand when BY in the JoD says Adam and God the Father are not the same.
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_Darth J
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Re: Why did Brigham Young believe Adam was God?

Post by _Darth J »

Here is a message I posted in March 2011. While you are reading it and anticipating increasingly elaborate ways for defenders of the faith to say "Nuh-uh!!!", see if any of them can specify where in the Millenial Star we can find this "Adam, Sr./Adam, Jr." b.s.

Darth J wrote:On another thread, bcspace has made two incompatible assertions:

1. If the LDS Church prints something in an official publication, it is official doctrine.

2. The Adam-God Theory was never official doctrine.

The above are both common apologist/internet Mormon talking points. Thus, it is my sad duty to inform you that by this standard, the Adam-God "theory" was in fact the official doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints while Brigham Young was the president of the Church.

As I mentioned in the thread referenced above, the Adam-God doctrine was published in the Millennial Star. Brigham Young University tells us the following about the Millennial Star:

The Millennial Star was the longest running Latter-day Saint (LDS) periodical, published continuously for 130 years until discontinued in 1970 with the overhaul of all the LDS magazines. It was inaugurated by the Twelve at the beginning of their great mission to England. Brigham Young and his fellow members of the Twelve landed in Liverpool on April 6, 1840, the tenth anniversary of the Church. Eight days later they began a series of meetings in Preston in which they resolved to publish a monthly periodical to be called the Latter-day Saints Millennial Star. The prospectus, also reprinted in the first number of the Star, announces that the magazine “will stand aloof from the common political and commercial news of the day.—Its columns will be devoted to the spread of the fulness of the gospel.”

..........

Even though the Star was published primarily for the members of the Church in England, it is an important record of the progress of the whole of Mormonism, especially of the nineteenth century Utah church. Hence, it is difficult to overestimate the value of the Star. “But for this publication,” notes H. H. Bancroft, “it would be impossible to fill the gaps which occur in the record of the Mormon people.” (History of Utah, 407).


Now, some faithful Latter-day Saints may be uncomfortable going to "mormonsareacult.org"-type websites for quotes from the Millennial Star. This is understandable; as Obiwan has taught us, don't give in to hate. That leads to the dark side.

No, sorry, wrong Obi-Wan. Anyway, as Obiwan the board member has taught us, anti-Mormons are a priori liars. How blessed we are, then, that we can go to BYU's digital collections to see what was printed in the Millennial Star, and rest assured that we have accurate, unbiased digital scans of this official church publication.

Let's start with an excerpt from the November 26, 1853 Millennial Star. You can read the entire thing, free from anti-Mormon biases and lies, on BYU's digital collections here.

When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken. He is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom we have to do.

Italics and capitalization in original. The 11/26/1853 edition of the Millennial Star goes on to say:

Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in heaven. now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation.

As you read through the teachings of the prophet Brigham Young in this official church publication, you will see that the Prophet is indicating that Elohim is the father of Adam, and therefore Elohim is actually Heavenly Grandfather, while Adam is the being who is our Heavenly Father. So much for the assertion about "Adam, Sr. and Adam, Jr.," as well as that old apologetic chestnut that people wrote it down wrong when they transcribed Brigham Young's sermons (hard to reconcile that ad hoc claim with the Church officially publishing what was supposedly written down incorrectly).

On December 10, 1853, the official church publication known as the Millennial Star printed an editorial entitled, "Adam, the Father and God of the Human Family."

Among other things, this editorial further clarifies that Elohim is the supreme God over all the Gods from various worlds---Heavenly Grandfather, in other words---but our own Heavenly Father---the person we are referring to when we say "Heavenly Father" or the unqualified term "God"---is Adam.

As the great Eloheim is supreme and Almighty over all his children and kingdoms, so is Adam as great a ruler, or God, in his sphere, over his children, and the kingdom which they possess. The earth and all things upon it were created for Adam, and it was given to him of his father to have dominion over it. In that dominion he will be sustained throughout all eternity.


Again, I would hate to send anyone to one of those bigoted, dishonest anti-Mormon sites that takes everything out of context or just plain lies, so instead you can go read this at BYU's digital collections.

One of the things that becomes clear from this official doctrine set forth in the longest-running official publication of the Church is that Adam-God is not some arbitrary, idiosyncratic idea that just popped into Brigham Young's head one day. As you read through the inspired teachings of the second prophet of the Restoration, it becomes clear that Adam-God explains the concepts of eternal progression, godhood, and the plan of salvation. This doctrine makes plain the identity and destiny of the human family.

Some people found the Adam-God doctrine troubling, which the Millennial Star acknowledged. Its answer to such hesitation was,

If, as Elder Caffall remarked, there are those who are waiting at the door of the Church for this objection to be removed, tell such, the Prophet and Apostle Brigham has declared it, and that it is the word of the Lord. That is vastly stronger proof than Christendom can give.

Italics in original.

This was reported in the minutes of a special church conference in the August 25, 1854 edition of the Millennial Star. You can read the above quote right from this official church publication, including its full context so you can make sure that this is talking specifically about the Adam-God doctrine, on the truthful, reliable, and bias free digital scans from BYU here (page 534).

There are other examples of the Millennial Star indicating that Adam-God was the official doctrine of the Church taught in an official church publication, but I think what we have here is a good start.

Unfortunately, some people try to subvert the order of the priesthood by suggesting that the Adam-God doctrine was not accepted by the Quorum of the Twelve. Such people trying to ignore that "the Lord's house is a house of order" point to Orson Pratt's public dissent from the Adam-God doctrine.

Such people are either unaware of the facts or deliberately ignoring the facts. Orson Pratt was nearly disfellowshipped over his public dispute with the Prophet (who, as we know, is the only person authorized to receive revelation on behalf of the Church). Only by admitting his fault and agreeing to stop contradicting the teachings of President Brigham Young did the Quorum of the Twelve sustain a vote not to take disciplinary action against Elder Pratt. For those not familiar with this history, I recommend the following:

http://content.lib.utah.edu/cdm4/docume ... OSHOW=2878

In summary, since so many apologists and internet Mormons have staked a claim on the position that "official publication = official doctrine," it is indisputable that they cannot have it both ways. They cannot make this claim about what constitutes official doctrine while also claiming that Adam-God was not the official doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints under the leadership of the Prophet Brigham Young.

The reason for dismissing Adam-God as "not official doctrine" is that otherwise uncomfortable questions are invited about whether the Church really can teach things, claiming these things to be the word of the Lord, that are later repudiated as being false. Such questions are uncomfortable because then we have to wonder what, if anything, "continuing revelation" really means, whether there are things currently being taught as truth that might be false, and whether the Prophet really can, contra Official Declaration 1, lead the Church astray. This is particularly unsettling with such fundamental doctrinal questions as who Heavenly Father is.

In any event, however, the facts of the matter for those claiming that "publication means doctrine" have, I think, pretty much killed, buried, and nailed the coffin shut on the idea that the Adam-God "theory" was never the official doctrine of the LDS Church, and then thrown the coffin into Mount Doom, before dropping Mt. Doom under the continental plates.
_SteelHead
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Re: Why did Brigham Young believe Adam was God?

Post by _SteelHead »

Again where did BY ever use a Sr or a Jr? Oh.... he didn't. You are whole clothe inventing a conjecture. Congratulations, do you want a star?

He did say however:
"Adam was an immortal being when he came. on this earth he had lived on an earth similar to ours… and had begotten all the spirit that was to come to this earth. and Eve our common Mother who is the mother of all living bore those spirits in the celestial world…. Father Adam’s oldest son (Jesus the Saviour) who is the heir of the family is Father Adams first begotten in the spirit World. who according to the flesh is the only begotten as it is written. In his divinity he having gone back into the spirit World. and come in the spirit [glory] to Mary and she conceived for when Adam and Eve got through with their Work in this earth. they did not lay their bodies down in the dust, but returned to the spirit World from whence they came." (Journal of L. John Nuttall, personal secretary of Brigham Young, February 7, 1877 in BYU Special Collections).


And in reference of BY viewpoint of the exact genealogy.... well he seems indifferent at best.
"Whether Adam is the personage that we should consider Our Heavenly Father, or not, is considerable of a mystery to a good many. I do not care for one moment how that is; it is no matter whether we are to consider Him our God, or whether His Father, or his Grandfather, for in either case we are of one species of one family and Jesus Christ is also of our species."


That his viewpoint may be controversial, and inconsistent is irrelevant to whether or not he preached it as doctrine. He did. To the point that it was taught as part of the temple ceremony.

Throw him under the bus as much as you like. I am not the one trying to defend him, rather I take what he said at face value.

--Edit-- And darth j's post makes a very strong argument that even by your recent standard for constituting doctrine, this was considered doctrine. If BY teaches it, multiple times, in multiple locations, it is common to the brethren and the members, it is published in official publications, and part of the temple teachings....... how is it not doctrine again? Oh because you say so........................ right.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
_bcspace
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Re: Why did Brigham Young believe Adam was God?

Post by _bcspace »

Again where did BY ever use a Sr or a Jr? Oh.... he didn't. You are whole clothe inventing a conjecture. Congratulations, do you want a star


But BY did refer to God the Father as being a Grandfather to the children of Adam. And since he did also refer to God as Adam, that means you have an Adam Sr and an Adam Jr.

He did say however:


Well there are some things you forget, perhaps not wishing them to be seen because you know they put the lie into your chestnut:

And when this earth was organized by Elohim, Jehovah and Michael, who is Adam our common father, Adam and Eve had the privilege to continue the work of progression, consequently came to this earth and commenced the great work of forming tabernacles for those spirits to dwell in, and when Adam and those that assisted him had completed this kingdom our earth[,] he came to it, and slept and forgot all and became like an infant child.
7 February Nuttall


Notice that Elohim is separate from Michael and that Michael is Adam who then after helping with the creation came to earth in a deep sleep [and the the rib was taken from him etc.]. That means the Adam spoken of previously is Adam Sr who had already become a God, going through the resurrection etc.

And after this description of Adam (Jr), there are more ellipses and we go back to what happenrd to Adam Sr, the father of Jesus (and also Adam Jr. who is Michael). Adam Sr/Jr is quite plainly manifest here.
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Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
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