Homosexuality: The Truth Will Set You Free (Yes, Even You)

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_Jersey Girl
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Re: Homosexuality: The Truth Will Set You Free (Yes, Even Yo

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Shulem wrote:
I can't even read the study because it just makes me sick that Droopy is bashing my sexual orientation when I know I AM THAT I AM, gay. I'm so happy about finally being me. The joy is unbelievable and causes my whole being to be deeply refreshed in goodness.

Thanks for your comment Jersey Girl because I know you are one of the smartest people on the board and if it (the study) means jack then that is assuredly so. I know Droopy is in the wrong because I know how wonderful being homosexual can truly be. I've felt more of those wonderful Holy Ghost like feelings (warm, expanding, delightful, peace) being this way than I ever did pretending to be a righteous straight Mormon.

I'm free and it feels so good. It feels right.

I owe you, Jersey Girl.

Paul O


I want to try to do something with the lengthy OP but look, the study is essentially comparing married couples to non-married couples.

That's why it doesn't mean jack.

Until we have the ability to compile stats on gay married couples, we've got nothing to use for comparison in any meaningful way.

The introduction of gay marriage is a new relationship trend. We've not been down this road before. We can't measure it against hetero marriage until we've got something to measure and that's going to take time.

Let's see a study 30 years from now, after the novelty has worn off, and see how gay people settle in with regards to marriage. For the first time, gay people have a new way to define their relationships, we simply can't know how that's going to level out over time.
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_Droopy
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Re: Homosexuality: The Truth Will Set You Free (Yes, Even Yo

Post by _Droopy »

just me wrote:Did this thread come with a point?



Try reading the study.
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Re: Homosexuality: The Truth Will Set You Free (Yes, Even Yo

Post by _Droopy »


Droopy, instead of posting a huge copy/paste from some nutty conservative-christian website...


Did you read the study?
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Homosexuality: The Truth Will Set You Free (Yes, Even Yo

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Loran,

I read the study and it's deceptive as hell.
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_Droopy
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Re: Homosexuality: The Truth Will Set You Free (Yes, Even Yo

Post by _Droopy »

Jersey Girl wrote:Unless someone else happens to make the points I have in mind, I'm going to reply to the OP, I so swear.

The study is missing something, Loran.

Edit: Okay, let me just say this one thing. What you've posted is a comparison study of married couples and gay couples.

The problem is that if you're going to choose to compare gay relationships to married couples, you literally have no stats on the gay side for the basis of that comparison.

Now, if you want to compare unmarried hetero relationships to unmarried gay relationships, then you've got something viable to work with.

My point is that there are no long term studies of married gay couples to compare with long term studies of married hetero's.

That is to say, the study that you've referenced means jack.
;-)



You're really trying hard to fudge it here, Jersey Girl, but no matter. A major aspect of the empirical evidence here is the very clear (and long known) fact that the vast majority of male homosexuals never have, and never will, avail themselves of marriage, whether or not it is legally available. It is not a part of the homosexual culture, mindset, and sexual orientation itself.

Homosexual relationships are substantially different then heterosexual relations along a number of dimensions, the most salient being the brevity of such relationships, the number of relationships per individual, the extreme promiscuity as a norm in Gay culture, and the dearth of formation of long term partnerships and marriages vs. heterosexual.

These are empirical data from a wide variety of scholarly social science sources.

One may weep when one reads, but wipe the tears away and read on.

The truth, as the title of the thread suggests, will set you free.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
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Re: Homosexuality: The Truth Will Set You Free (Yes, Even Yo

Post by _Droopy »

Jersey Girl wrote:Loran,

I read the study and it's deceptive as hell.



Clear empirical evidence corroborated in study after study is "deceptive?"

Interesting.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Homosexuality: The Truth Will Set You Free (Yes, Even Yo

Post by _Jersey Girl »

If I must...


Here's the first area of comparison:

RELATIONSHIP DURATION


Here is who we are using:

Married Couples

Male Homosexual Relationships


Here's the next area for comparison:


MONOGAMY VS. PROMISCUITY: SEXUAL PARTNERS OUTSIDE OF THE RELATIONSHIP


Here is who we are using:


Married couples



Male Homosexuals


I'm sorry, Loran, but this is bull scheisse. Try to change my mind.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
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_Jersey Girl
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Re: Homosexuality: The Truth Will Set You Free (Yes, Even Yo

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Droopy wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:Loran,

I read the study and it's deceptive as hell.



Clear empirical evidence corroborated in study after study is "deceptive?"

Interesting.


The material is skewed as all hell, yes it's deceptive.

Change my mind.
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_just me
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Re: Homosexuality: The Truth Will Set You Free (Yes, Even Yo

Post by _just me »

Jersey Girl wrote:
The material is skewed as all hell, yes it's deceptive.

Change my mind.


Amen. And obviously so, I literally laughed several times at the blatant skewering.
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Re: Homosexuality: The Truth Will Set You Free (Yes, Even Yo

Post by _Droopy »

I want to try to do something with the lengthy OP but look, the study is essentially comparing married couples to non-married couples.

That's why it doesn't mean jack.


You apparently didn't even bother reading the text of the study.



"Married and Gay Couples Not All that Different," proclaimed the headline of a news article portraying homosexual households as remarkably similar to married couples. "We're the couple next door," claimed one partnered homosexual. "We have a dog and a cat. I drive a Volvo. I'm boring."[1] Such down-home portrayals of homosexual couples are meant to provoke the question: Since gay couples really differ only in that both partners are of the same sex, what rational basis exists for denying them full marriage rights?

Are homosexual households, as the article suggests, simply another variant of human relationships that should be considered, along with marriage, as "part of mainstream American society"?

On the contrary, the evidence indicates that "committed" homosexual relationships are radically different from married couples in several key respects:
· relationship duration
· monogamy vs. promiscuity
· relationship commitment
· number of children being raised
· health risks
· rates of intimate partner violence


There is a very good reason the study places married heterosexual relationships alongside "committed homosexual" relationships, and that is because so few of them ever actually exist among male homosexuals. "Marriage" is a committed sexual relationship, and as committed sexual relationships are a traditional rarity among male homosexuals, there is no reason to believe homosexual marriage is not a perfectly acceptable proxy for heterosexual marriage.

You've missed a major part of the point here completely: few committed, long term homosexual relationships exist, or ever have existed, and hence, it is probably the case the few homosexual marriages will ever exist or will exist longer than the traditional brief homosexual norm, and, in point of fact, the study did, indeed, adduce empirical data regarding homosexual marriage as over against heterosexual marriage. I'm not sure how you missed this, as its a major portion of the text:

If homosexuals and lesbians truly desired the same kind of commitment signified by marriage, then one would expect them to take advantage of the opportunity to enter into civil unions or registered partnerships, which grant them legal recognition as well as the legal rights of marriage. However, surprisingly few homosexuals and lesbians choose to enter into such legally recognized unions where such arrangements are available, indicating that such couples do not share the same view of commitment as typified by married couples.

Vermont

In April 2000, the governor of the state of Vermont signed a law instituting civil unions for homosexuals. The bill conferred 300 privileges and rights enjoyed by married couples upon same-sex partners who register their relationship with the town clerk and have their union solemnized by a member of the clergy or the justice of the peace.

Estimating the homosexual and lesbian population of Vermont: The number of homosexuals and lesbians in the state of Vermont may be estimated based on national studies. Contrary to the widely promulgated but inaccurate claims that up to ten percent of the population is homosexual, research indicates that homosexuals comprise one to three percent of the population. For example, a recent study in Demography relying upon three large data sets--the General Social Survey, the National Health and Social Life Survey, and the U.S. Census--estimated the number of exclusive male homosexuals in the general population to be 2.5 percent and the number of exclusive lesbians to be 1.4 percent.[21]

According to the 2000 Census, the adult population of Vermont is 461,304.[22] Based on the Demography study, a reasonable estimate of the number of homosexuals and lesbians in Vermont would be approximately 5,600 (2.5 percent of the adult male population) for male homosexuals, and approximately 3,300 (1.4 percent of the adult female population) for lesbians, for a total of approximately 8,900 homosexuals and lesbians. [Note: these are only rough approximations for purposes of statistical comparison.]

Number of homosexuals and lesbians in Vermont who have entered into civil unions: USA Today reports that, as of January 2004, only 936 homosexual or lesbian couples (for a total of 1,872 individuals) have entered into civil unions.[23] This indicates that only about 21 percent of the estimated homosexual and lesbian population of Vermont has entered into civil unions. Put another way, 79 percent of homosexuals and lesbians in Vermont choose not to enter into civil unions.

By contrast, in Vermont, heterosexual married couples outnumber cohabiting couples by a margin of 7 to 1, indicating a much higher level of desire on the part of heterosexual couples to legalize their relationships.[24]

For purposes of comparison it may be useful to examine two countries that have granted special rights to homosexuals, including marriage-like civil unions, which grant gays and lesbians virtually all of the rights of marriage.

Sweden

In 1995 Sweden passed the Registered Partnership Act which created civil unions for homosexual couples. In 2003 that law was amended to give registered homosexual couples the same right to adopt or have legal custody of children as married couples. The percentage of homosexual or lesbians in Sweden that enter into civil unions may be estimated as follows:

Estimated homosexual and lesbian population of Sweden: Extrapolating from the Demography estimates in the U.S., a similar percentage of the homosexual and lesbian population of Sweden would be approximately 140,000 (2.5 percent of the adult male population of 3,531,554, and 1.4 percent of the adult female population of 3,679,317).[25]

Number of homosexuals and lesbians in Sweden who have registered their unions: The number of registered same-sex unions in Sweden is reported to be about 1,500 (for a total of 3,000 individuals) out of the estimated homosexual and lesbian population of 140,000.[26] This indicates that only about two percent of Swedish homosexuals and lesbians choose to enter into legally recognized unions. Put another way, about 98 percent of Swedish homosexuals and lesbians do not officially register as same-sex couples.

The Netherlands

A landmark law allowing same-sex "marriage" was instituted in the Netherlands on March 31, 2001, with a highly publicized communal ceremony that included two lesbian "brides" and six homosexual "grooms." The Netherlands instituted a "registered partnership" law in 1998 that accorded legal status to homosexual relationships similar to that of marriage. The new law, which explicitly recognizes same-sex matrimony, is restricted to Dutch nationals. However, as the following analysis shows, the percentage of homosexuals and lesbians that have entered into marriage-like civil unions is very low.

Estimated homosexual and lesbian population of the Netherlands: Extrapolating from demographic figures for homosexuals and lesbians in the U.S., a similar percentage for the Netherlands would be 242,000 (2.5 percent of the adult male population of 6,161,662, and 1.4 percent of the adult female population of 6,311,338).[27]

Number of Dutch homosexuals and lesbians who have registered their unions: A news report by the Gay Financial Network predicted that "some 10,000 gay couples could be married" in the first year following the legalization of gay "marriage" in the Netherlands. In reality, far fewer chose to solemnize their relationships. The Office of Legislative Research released a report in October 2002 stating: "The Dutch Ministry of Economic Affairs reports that 3,383 of the 121,776 marriages licensed between April 1, 2001, and June 30, 2002, involved people of the same sex."[28]

Thus, as of October 2002, only 2.8 percent, or 6,766 individuals (3,383 licenses) out of an estimated homosexual and lesbian population of 242,000, have registered their unions as "married."

Image



Until we have the ability to compile stats on gay married couples, we've got nothing to use for comparison in any meaningful way.


We already have stats on how many homosexual are entering into civil unions or marriages vs. heterosexual, as well as loads of data on the nature of homosexual relationships qua relationships. What that data indicate is that, when that future data eventually becomes available, what it will show is that the core elements and mental set of Gay culture and the Gay lifestyle has continued to manifest within within civil unions and homosexual marriages and that homosexual marriage will be a distinctly minority phenomena within the homosexual subculture.

The introduction of gay marriage is a new relationship trend. We've not been down this road before. We can't measure it against hetero marriage until we've got something to measure and that's going to take time.


We have generations (in not centuries) of observation of homosexual culture and psychological dynamics and a great deal of social science data from the late 20th century to go by, and there is no reason to believe that homosexuality as a syndrome and practice will be in the slightest altered by the simple availability of marriage, something that Gay culture as a whole was never interested in and, indeed, has been viscerally opposed to in the recent past.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
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